Rear End Goes Booom!!

[JP4Crawler]

I kissed my rear end goodbye this Sunday :cry: trying to climb out of Nightmare Gulch. A tricky hill climb & I guess a little too much of the skinny. Honestly, it seemed to give out a little too easily IMO. I've tackled much harder hills with the 4R without issue. Must have gotten some bite at the wrong time & place. Warranty is expired, so... SOL. Looks like I'm in the market for gears & lockers, sooner than I was hoping, as I don't want to do it twice.

Also killed my rear bumper. The rear failure left me in a precarious position that required the bumpers help to get free. Dad's JGC tie rod turned to noodles too. Bad timing!! The 4R limped me back thru the trail & all the way home.

Killer trail though. I'll do a trail report & pics this evening.

Jason

[bulldog]

Sorry to hear that. On the bright side you will be the first 4R to pop your rear with the stock setup. :bigok:

Are you going for stock gears or different ones. I assume you will be looking at a locker(s) while you are at it. I have a set of 4.56s (front and rear)coming in from Oz, but need to make sure they will fit the 4R though. I don't have an ETA on them yet.

See the "Who makes gears for the 4R" thread for some explanations of why they pop and how to get it done right when you open them. Mine will go to Sean at River City Diffs in Sac once I get everything organized.

Look forward to seeing your pics. I am starting to plan a trip out there for Oct. Lots of nice trails and some scenery, old mines, etc.

[bulldog]

What is interesting to me is that lots of folks have beaten the snot out of their rear end with no issues, including yourself. Then one day it just goes boom. Some guys with Prados have reported that it happened on climbs that were not that hard and they have done far harder climbs before no issues.

Did it strip/break the teeth on the gears or someting else?

[JP4Crawler]

I'm pretty sure they completely broke, as it was a frighteningly noisy ride home. I don't want to go stock & I've been following the "gears" thread, but timing is an issue. It's the wifes DD. Luckily I've got a loner, but if I go more than a couple weeks without wheelin', I go a little nuts. :banana: I need gears & a local So Cal installer now. I was hoping to get your feed back 1st on the gears, but fate had other plans.

So, should I hold out & see how your gears go or get my gears rolling? Opinions? Thanks! I'm a little stressed about this issue & not quite sure as to the best course of action.

It would have made more sense for me to blow it on the Miller Trail, that's a nasty one. I'm glad I didn't, I would not have made it off of Miller under my own power.

Jason

[bulldog]

I'm going to take some time getting the gears and lockers sorted out. So you might want to look into a local solution for yourself. Any chance of getting Toyota to warranty the gears given some failures that has been seen with the Tacos, Prados and FJCs??

[Cruiserhead]

Jason,
I've been compiling a thread on the rear diff issue.
http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?p=1345715

Once you get it apart, take pics galore- I would like to know if it's the same issue w/ the crown gear seperating from the pinion and breaking teeth. It sounds like it is happening in similar situations (see the Prado tech section w/ the Spanish 120 breaking in a similar climb situation)

If you need it fixed asap, I would simply get the ARB RD23 rear locker and get it on the road. You don't even have to do the compressor/wiring until you have time- just cap the airline at the rr diff until you want to do the rest (if you're pressed for time).

If you plan to regear, yes it will be additional labor but if you don't plan on doing it for awhile, it might be worth the couple hundred $$ to just get it back on the road.

I've had good luck w/ 4x4doctor in burbank. right next to costco off the 5fwy

Whatever installer you use, ask them to use shims NOT the OEM crushwasher. Yes, it take a bit longer but it makes it more likely to stay together.

[expat]

I guess it depends upon you circumstances (how quickly you need it back and running and how much risk you want to take). The gears from Oz could probably be shipped with delivery to you within the week in air mail but thew only problem with that is its a bit of an unknown. It should be a straightforward replacement but not having actually seen them, its impossible to guarantee this. Worst case senario would be get the gears from Oz in a week, find they don't fit, install stock gears, return Oz gears and maybe wear a bit on the shipping. However, I would expect the Oz supplier to cover the cost of shipping if they didn't fit. I could also save you the cost of shipping back if they didn't want to cover the cost, by taking them in my luggage when I go back to oz in December (X-Mas).

Personally I think the gears from oz will work like a charm, but I understand your circumstances (needs) may preclude this option.

If you want gears from Oz, please let me know. I'll do whatever I can to help ya out and I've still got a week on holidays so I can do the chasing around for you (calling them and getting their arses moving quickly!).

Cheers
Mark

[JP4Crawler]

My local dealer might be able to cover it, so I'm going to take it in today. If they can't cover it, then I'll go for the new gears from Oz & just wait it out. I've got a loner car as long as I need.

Thanks all, for your input. Mark, if the dealer can't do it, I may take you up on your offer & I really appreciate the help. I'll post up as soon as I get back from the dealer.

Jason

[JP4Crawler]

Well, this morning sounded like the dealer was going to cover it, then I got the call. No Go! The reason: "Rear differential pinion is increased which may have caused lack of lubrication of pinion bearing." What do you guys think? Sounds like BS to me. I'll verify all this when I get it into a shop.

Talked to the guys at 4xDr & they thought they might have a source for the front gears. I'll be getting into the details with them tomorrow, so we'll see. If they can't track any down, I'll give the Oz guys a try & see if we can get those gears straightened out. I'll post up as I make progress.

Jason

[bulldog]

Sounds like a BS explanation to me. Sounds more like the pinion and ring deflection problem as explained by Darren.

Let us know if 4xDr can get things sorted for you, especially on front gears. Also please get them to measure the front ring gear if you can.

[sibanez]

"Rear differential pinion is increased


What the hell does that mean? Also, if they are saying that it may have caused the issue, I'd consider that a breach of contract . . . unless they can prove it was the issue, they have to enforce the warranty.


Well, this morning sounded like the dealer was going to cover it, then I got the call. No Go! The reason: "Rear differential pinion is increased which may have caused lack of lubrication of pinion bearing." What do you guys think? Sounds like BS to me. I'll verify all this when I get it into a shop.

Talked to the guys at 4xDr & they thought they might have a source for the front gears. I'll be getting into the details with them tomorrow, so we'll see. If they can't track any down, I'll give the Oz guys a try & see if we can get those gears straightened out. I'll post up as I make progress.

Jason

[my034runner]

"Rear differential pinion is increased


What the hell does that mean? Also, if they are saying that it may have caused the issue, I'd consider that a breach of contract . . . unless they can prove it was the issue, they have to enforce the warranty.



He already stated in his first post, that his warranty has expired! Therefore, there's no contract to breach.

[sibanez]

Missed that part, it's still partially confusing why they offered to fix it (good faith thing) and then didn't because they think something may have happened. My dealership experiences have been pretty good, with no questions about my lift/sliders/skid . . . I did buy the extended warranty and plan to use it if my rear does blow up.

One good thing about living in Pennsylvania are the strict lemon laws and the burden of proof put on the car companies.

He already stated in his first post, that his warranty has expired! Therefore, there's no contract to breach.

[JP4Crawler]

My powertrain is actually still covered. My mistake, I've never needed it before. They said it may be covered, but wouldn't know unless they open it up & charge me for the labor if they determine the lift &/or tires caused the failure. It didn't sound very promising & I certainly don't want to pay the dealer $. I went to corporate & can challenge, but w/ my mods they said it will be tuff. I've already resigned myself to new gears anyway, so... what the hell. Gears & lockers it is.

Jason

[bulldog]

On the LC100s quite few guys got their front diffs fixed under warranty and a number of them had lifts and bigger tires on. I think it is a very poor excuse by the dealer for a vehicle made to go offroad. Seems to really depend on the dealer. With dealers it is simply a you scratch my back and I scratch yours. If a dealer wont help me on a reasonable warranty claim they should not expect a penny from after that. My business will just go elsewhere.

The dealer where I service my 4R had no issues to swap out my front CV boots under warranty after the inner one started leaking, that was after my lift, tires, etc. A lot of of these warranty claims are done at the descretion of the service writer and manager at the dealership.

Go for the gears and locker or alternatively you can buy a second hand 3rd for the rear for $300 or so and just pop it in.

[JP4Crawler]

Corporate made it sound like I could fight & possibly get it covered by getting 2nd, 3rd & 4th opinions, but half of me wanted them to say no anyway. My local dealer doesn't have the best rep, so I expected this. I drove 2 hrs away to buy it.

If I can get the gears, that's what I'll do, otherwise get a used 3rd & install the rear locker for now. That way I can get a good feel for the locker before I get both. Either way, I can't wait to get a locker or 2 & run the same trails & see the difference. 4Xdr is working on it & may have found it. We'll see.

Jason

[JP4Crawler]

The 4R is still at the dealer & we're waiting for a response from corp. I'm using the Taco problems as my case. By the time they respond there may be gears available, so if they deny, I'll at least get gears & lockers. I'll post with updates.

Jason

[bulldog]

Will be interesting to see what the outcome is on this. Hopefully they stand behind it and fix it, however given some of the threads I read on ttora it didn't look very positive.

[Mikestang]

Good luck!

[JP4Crawler]

Toyota denied my claim. :mad: I thought they were going to cover it, damn...
So, I'll go to arbitration. If I could get gears, I'd say to hell with it, but I hate to spend the $$ & not regear. What a PITA! I may have 4XDr rebuild & upgrade the rear, but I have to see how that may affect arbitration. I'll post any updates.

Jason

[bulldog]

Man, that sucks. Toyota will probably not help if you put in aftermarket stuff. I'm really getting annoyed with Toyota denying claims on offraod vehicles when they are actually taken offroad.

I'm waiting on the guys in Oz to ship me the correct front gears, they said it should be here next week. I think All Pro might have gears now, but they are probably going to price much higher than the gears I'm getting. My rears are actually US Gear brand.

[JP4Crawler]

I talked to All Pro today & they said "a few more wks". They won't say for sure, but price will be around the $400 mark for just the front.

Once you regear &/or add a locker, the warranty is void. I spoke with the service tech, @ the local dealer, in great length. He said that I could make the repair & if I win thru arbitration, would be reimbursed for the repair. Not any upgrades, of course, but to keep the old parts for future inspection, if it comes to that, in arbitration. I'm trying to confirm this. I have to get the 4R back on the rd, so I'm planning to get things rollin' next wk.

Jason

[Mikestang]

Did they provide any real, engineering data how your mods caused it to break, or did they just say tough s***?

[JP4Crawler]

No data. In arbitration they will certainly have to , so it will be interesting. I'll keep updating with info.

Jason

[robert]

JP4, Not sure how you got into arbitration so quickly. Maybe your state laws.

My experience with Toyota was that the dealer called the Regional Service Manager (RSM) who reviews (and denies) claims. I was out of warranty, but told the dealer that wasn't an acceptable response from Toyota. Dealer submitted again, with my comments, and the RSM denied again. Came to light that the RSM's job is to "control" warranty payout. My opinion is that after a certain number of claims (likely based on dollars), he rubber stamps denials on out of warranty service requests.

I didn't go away. I got the Toyota Regional Office's address and wrote three letters. I set dates for responses (typically 15 days), and requested the RSM or someone with authority to make decisions to call me directly to talk about a resolution.

Regional office called me directly, and the quesiton was posed "what will make this right for you?". My response was for them to pay all given the circumstances. They told me that wouldn't happen. We settled by splitting labor, and Toyota bought the window motor (out of warranty if I didn't already mention it).

I feel like being respectful, keeping my cool, but standing firm as to what was right was most effective. Good luck.

[JP4Crawler]

I'm not in arbitration yet. Just got to that point quickly. Took 4R in w/ mods, they requested approval from RSM immediately, he came, he looked, he denied. I called Corp & said no way. 4R goes back to dealer, on their dime. Pics taken & sent to reviewer at Corp. 10 days later Corp denies claim. I get call, say no & they send arbitration packet. Corp said 3-5 buss. days. I await packet.

All my calm, cool & collected assertive suaveness got me nowhere, although it's worked miracles for me in the past. ;) I was surprised that there wasn't more communication from the dealer or Toy Corp. It appears Toyota will be looking for any excuse to deny claims, & a lift w/ bigger tires looks like a get out of jail free card. Not so with me. If they prove my mods caused the failure, fine, lesson learned, otherwise stand behind your product. We will see.

Jason

[JP4Crawler]

I found a used 3rd for a good price, it's from an 05 GX470 V8 w/ 3.73 gears. It appears this is compatable, can anyone confirm this?? Thanks.

Jason

[bulldog]

I found a used 3rd for a good price, it's from an 05 GX470 V8 w/ 3.73 gears. It appears this is compatable, can anyone confirm this?? Thanks.

Jason
I looked at both the GX and the 4R in my garage and I can't see any difference between the 3rds on the 2. I can also see no reason why it would be different.

[sibanez]

According to my parts guy, they are the same kit numbers, which means they should be the same exact parts.

[JP4Crawler]

Thanks Bulldog.

All Pro told me another 2 wks, so I'll just swap in a used 3rd. Ordered today. Shipped from Wisconsin for $330.00. Not bad & only 3K miles on it. :bigok: At least I'll be on the rd for Randsburg.

If anyone can post instructions for removal & install of the 3rd, I'd appretiate it. Thanks.

Jason

[Cruiserhead]

There is some law that says mods don't affect warranty claims unless directly proven - or something like that. magnussun act?

anyway, there is certainly alot of precedent for blown rears like yours. You could go in w/ printouts of alot of owners from around the world w/ the same issue- and many covered by Toyota...

[JP4Crawler]

That is correct. The burden of proof is totally on Toyota. I've got a pretty good packet of info for the judge, but from what I understand, the judge wants to see Toyota's proof. If they can't convince the judge, they loose.

Here is a link to the TTORA thread: http://tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33522&page=1&pp=30 If anyone needs ammo for arbitration, you'll find it here. It's very long! Ye be warned.

Thanks sibanez, that's what the dealer told me too. Glad to have confirmed that more than once.

Jason

[JP4Crawler]

I got my 3Rd last nite, I was thrilled & so I was ready to go this morning & when I opened it up, WTF is this??!! Totaly wrong part. Geez, I'm just not catchin' a break lately. Can't talk to the supplier till Mon.

While the 4R has been down, I at least found time to install my Cobra CB & Herced my trashed bumper. Obviously, I'm trying to stay positive. Hopefully, I'll be ready for Desert Run.

Jason

[bulldog]

I got my 3Rd last nite, I was thrilled & so I was ready to go this morning & when I opened it up, WTF is this??!! Totaly wrong part. Geez, I'm just not catchin' a break lately. Can't talk to the supplier till Mon.

While the 4R has been down, I at least found time to install my Cobra CB & Herced my trashed bumper. Obviously, I'm trying to stay positive. Hopefully, I'll be ready for Desert Run.

Jason
Man that sucks!!! I assume they didn't send you the GX 3rd, but something very different.

[JP4Crawler]

It sure wasn't the 3rd of anything I've seen. Maybe the front diff of a front wheel dr? I don't know, but it had 3 arms. Weird. Well, I'll check with All Pro again, maybe I'm meant to get geared & locked.

Jason

[JP4Crawler]

I got the correct rear carrier late last night & went to work with my dad this morning. We got the old 3rd out, put the new one in & took it out for a drive. Everything sounds good in the diff. Runs like butter. So we took it to some local hills to test it out. If I did something wrong, I like to find out close to home, so I worked the new rear very hard & it performed flawlessly.

So I went to the hardware store, for some screws, to finish up my bumper & on the way home I noticed a strange rubbing sound, when I turn sharply, coming from the rear. I kept jumping out to see what it was & didn't see anything that could cause this sound. It souds like when my front tire rubs on the CA's, but definitely "feels" like something from the rear. It got dark, so I will have a good look tommorow & hope it's something simple. If anyone has any thoughts on the possible cause, post up. I mean anything.

BTW, All Pro told me another 2-3 wks. Totally nuts! They've been telling me this for the past 6 wks. Don't hold your breath for those guys, but when they get 'em, you might want to get a set before they're gone.

Jason

[bulldog]

Good to hear she is running again. You better be ready for the Desert run in a couple of weeks :poke:

It might be worth your while to get the rear back up tomorrow and take the tires off an recheck everything. Check your rear hubs and brake shoes for rubbing as well. Check for any axle play, where it might not be in fully, etc. Sometimes you miss something small when doing a big install.

Also check for tire rubbing marks on both the front and back. I would suspect the front more than the back as you have 285s on stock wheels.

[JP4Crawler]

Thanks. That's what I'll do, although I really try to take my time & not miss anything, but I sure am hoping I goofed on something easy. I always rub in the front at full lock, but this is not in the front, it's just making the same sound. I'm crossing my fingers.

I'll be there for Desert Run, for sure.

Jason

[bulldog]

I'm still waiting on my front gears. I might seriously think about getting the Allpro gears as well to compare to whatever the Ozzies send me. I just don't feel like dealing with Allpro with the ass on the phone, maybe they got it sorted and I might feel like calling them again. At least that way I will know the stuff is correct. I don't want the truck sitting at the installer in pieces waiting for freaken gears!! The rear should be easy to sort out if they aren't correct, as the diff is the common Toy rear 8".

Anyway back to topic. Let us know how it turns out.

[JP4Crawler]

It turns out my front diff is shot!! I need to seriously reconsider my off-road capability if I blew both diffs. I'm pretty confused here. Is it more likely that I blew both diffs driving like an ass or I have something wrong? No offense, please post your opinions, so I can learn. WTF!!

The rear is all good now. I took off the front drive shaft, so I can at least use the 4R now, but what is going on? I'll order a front in the AM & install ASAP. CONFUSED!!?? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Jason

[bulldog]

What is blown on the front diff, ring and pinion as well?

Hmmmm, maybe you are just very unlucky with the diff assemblies or had run of luck on a trail somewhere. Maybe you had a skinny pedal violation at some point that is coming back to haunt you. Never wheeled with you, so can't tell if you are hard on the skinny pedal.

I and a lot of the folks here have had some form of skinny pedal violation with no issues so far. My 4R has 65K miles and the diffs are still good as far as I can tell. I have had a CV boot leak (probably from screwing around with so many lift setups) and I recently had (on the side where they replaced the CV boots) to replace the oil seal on the front diff.

I do however swap diff fluids every 20K in the rear and transfer/front every 40K with syn oil. I will probably swap all the fluids again after (one day :rolleyes: ) when I get gears and lockers in.

Anyway hope you get it sorted soon, and we can see how you drive in a few weeks ;)

[my034runner]

It turns out my front diff is shot!! I need to seriously reconsider my off-road capability if I blew both diffs. I'm pretty confused here. Is it more likely that I blew both diffs driving like an ass or I have something wrong? No offense, please post your opinions, so I can learn. WTF!!

The rear is all good now. I took off the front drive shaft, so I can at least use the 4R now, but what is going on? I'll order a front in the AM & install ASAP. CONFUSED!!?? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Jason



How the heck did you manage that??? :confused:
I beat my034runner up, and have traveled just about every type of terrain with zero issues on either diff.
Sorry, but I have no ideas to offer you on this one. Good luck, and let us know the outcome. I hope that you can get it figured out in time for Desert Run '06!

[expat]

I'd agree that it seems pretty difficult to blow both diffs.

Possible causes?

Lack of oil
Extreme heat
Water ingress
Spinning freely then grabbing traction
Suspension out of alignment
Dropping into gear incorrectly
Driving on bitumen locked

Sorry for your problems. Hope you get it fixed real soon.


Edit: Should clarify, I am only guessing at possible causes. Not sure if any of these are possible causes.

[Jared]

It turns out my front diff is shot!! I need to seriously reconsider my off-road capability if I blew both diffs. I'm pretty confused here. Is it more likely that I blew both diffs driving like an ass or I have something wrong? No offense, please post your opinions, so I can learn. WTF!!

The rear is all good now. I took off the front drive shaft, so I can at least use the 4R now, but what is going on? I'll order a front in the AM & install ASAP. CONFUSED!!?? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Jason


I find it really hard to believe that you blew both diffs just offroading it. There has to be something else going on entirely. The front diff is a beast, I can't imagine you'd blow that out before destroying your cv's. I mean, Lance still runs his front and rear diffs stock and he's got the LT system cycling the front.

I obviously don't know what exaclty the problem is, but I think you got really unlucky somewhere. Sorry, not the best thing to hear, I know. I forgot what happened with your warantee issues, but I wonder if this enables you to make a claim at the dealership, or if it hurts it.

[JP4Crawler]

It feels like I'm missing a tooth on the spider gears. That's my guess. I am a very cautious driver, only resorting to the skinny if all else fails. Now, when I blew the rear, I think skinny abuse may have been a factor, although I'm still not convinced on that one. The front, though, has me stumped. There was no possibility of driver abuse on the front, that's for sure. I'm wondering if there was an HT problem? It doesn't really matter though, all I can do is fix it.

I just had a complete flush of all my fluid systems, at 40k, & replaced with synthetics. The shop is good, so no concerns about a screw up there & I supplied all the fluids, which they confirmed with Toyota as acceptable. I'll have it all fixed up by the weekend, so I'll see you guys at Desert Run.

Jason

[my034runner]

Cool, look forward to meeting and wheeling with you. See you soon, and please let us know what you're able to identify as the culprit. :wavey:

[JP4Crawler]

OFF TOPIC? But may be related? My tranny is slipping. When I accelerate from a stop I get a "DDDDDDD" sound before it catches & then moves on as normal. I'm driving on the rear diff only, with the front drive shaft discoed, but I've done this on other vehicles without issue. I don't drive it much either, maybe 200 miles +/-, since I installed the rear. All easy driving. It sounds like I'm spinning my tires before they catch & move on, but that's not the case. Any ideas?????

If my tranny is shot, it's LAWYER & LEMON LAW TIME!!!! I take good care of my ride & I do not drive it hard enough to justify all this BS. I'm hoping the new front diff alleviates the prob & the V8 is just too much for the rear alone, which is why you only get the V8 with AT, but if not, I will have lost all faith in Toyota. If you have any thoughts, please post up. Thanks.

Jason

[my034runner]

I am standing beside myself. I've not heard or seen any Toyota, much less a 4Runner have any problems, much less yours. I just wish that you lived up here, I would have had my buddy (and master Certified Tech) Brett check out your ride.
Only thing that I can guess on the V8, is that it's designed as a full time 4wd. So maybe by not having the front connected while you're driving could definitely cause a problem. I don't see how you could harm it, that tranny is solid as a rock. So is the 4 speed that I have in my034runner V6. I want you to do this, PM Damaged110 (that's Brett's user name) and explain everything and feel free to pick his brain.
I don't know if this helps, but Brett should.

Oh yeah, don't lose faith in Toyota!! I've been beating the sh*t out of them for 25 years! My first Toyota was a 1981 reg. cab long bed 4x4 with the old 20R engine and a 4 speed manual trans. I put over 600,000 mile on that beast, and I can comfortably say, close to half was off road. So they do make the best vehicle, especially for off roading, but I'm very perplexed by yours. Even my last 4Runner (1997 Limited 4x4) performed flawlessly, never even one little problem, and none on my 1989 Celica, nor my034runner. :confused:

[JP4Crawler]

My 1st vehicle was an 80' Toy P/U. It still runs to this day, just won't pass Ca smog laws. I got it from my dad, who beat the s*** out of it, I mean that!! I dropped a new tranny in that thing & continued to beat the s*** out of it. It never let me down. That's why I dropped the cash on the new 4R, I figured that you can't go wrong with Toyota.

After the weekend, I'll know for sure if there's any more issues. I'll certainly talk with Brett if that's the case. Thanks for the help.

Jason

[my034runner]

My 1st vehicle was an 80' Toy P/U. It still runs to this day, just won't pass Ca smog laws. I got it from my dad, who beat the s*** out of it, I mean that!! I dropped a new tranny in that thing & continued to beat the s*** out of it. It never let me down. That's why I dropped the cash on the new 4R, I figured that you can't go wrong with Toyota.

After the weekend, I'll know for sure if there's any more issues. I'll certainly talk with Brett if that's the case. Thanks for the help.

Jason


Yeah, most definitely talk to Brett, it's hard to trouble shoot over the phone or Internet, but he can help.

And you're correct, you can't go wrong with Toyota, well.........

[bulldog]

I assume you have your center diff locked. It can be the front diff providing resistance to forward movement with some metal caught in the gears
somewhere.

Probably fix the front diff first before looking for other issues with the driveline.

I hope it is not your gearbox as you would then have hit the motherload of problems. The gearbox is now used on most Toyota V8 trucks, even the LC100 so I seriously doubt it is a weak unit by any means.

[JP4Crawler]

I regret to inform that I did not have the center diff locked. What kind of damage may this have caused? My diff button has not been engaging well ever since the the rear diff failure. I was able to get the button to engage, after some gear shifting & reversing, & that solved the slippage problem. Please forgive my ignorance, but can someone explain the need for the diff lock without the front drive shaft? Would it be the equivelant of locking the hubs on an older truck?

The good news is that I got the new front diff in. :bigok: It was a bear to get that thing out!! We worked into the late evening, at my bro's house, & I was not leaving without my 4R, which was considered a couple of times. Seams to be running smoothly.

The bad news is that the 4R will not go into 4low & the diff button will not engage. :mecry: I'm thinking I will take it to a dealer, on Monday, & try to get to the bottom of this quickly. Two diff swaps in the last wk have me pretty tired out. Thanks for all the help thru this guys, I appreciate it.

Jason

[my034runner]

I regret to inform that I did not have the center diff locked. What kind of damage may this have caused? My diff button has not been engaging well ever since the the rear diff failure. I was able to get the button to engage, after some gear shifting & reversing, & that solved the slippage problem. Please forgive my ignorance, but can someone explain the need for the diff lock without the front drive shaft? Would it be the equivalent of locking the hubs on an older truck?

The good news is that I got the new front diff in. :bigok: It was a bear to get that thing out!! We worked into the late evening, at my bro's house, & I was not leaving without my 4R, which was considered a couple of times. Seams to be running smoothly.

The bad news is that the 4R will not go into 4low & the diff button will not engage. :mecry: I'm thinking I will take it to a dealer, on Monday, & try to get to the bottom of this quickly. Two diff swaps in the last wk have me pretty tired out. Thanks for all the help thru this guys, I appreciate it.

Jason



Good news that you have it installed. Did you get all of the wires plugged back in? The truck needs to send a signal to the gears to engage into 4 low and for the center diff lock I believe. Not a mechanic, but my assumption. :wavey:

[Mikestang]

I regret to inform that I did not have the center diff locked. What kind of damage may this have caused?
I don't think it would of caused any damage, it just would have given you more rwd oomph. Since you didn't have the front diff connected there would be no reason for the xfer case to modulate power between the front and rear diffs, so by locking the xfer case you give the rears a constant supply of torque. That's my guess anyways. I wouldn't of thought about it until Andries mentioned it.

[bulldog]

The center diff is a torsen limited slip diff. If you leave the center diff open with a normal center diff, you will only stay in one place as it will send all the toruque to the front driveshaft which is disconnected. Same reason as why people put diff locks n the front and rear. With the Torsen limited slipp diff it will limited the slip (i.e. sending all the torque forward) and cause the hesitation you noted. It was however designed to be able to move torque between the 2 axles for drivng on gravel, icey roads not permamnently. That is the reason why the 4R handles so well at speed on those gravel roads, etc.

I don't think your transfer case is damaged though. MIne got a bit finiky after some abuse (left it locked after aring down at Pismo and drove on the street). I suggest just change ut the oil in the transfer case with synthetic oil (helped mine a bit). Then just reverse when engaging the diff lock. Basically go forawrd and back till it statrts engaging again. Then keep doing it a few times till it does it smoothly. The mechanism probably just froze up a bit with driving it open without the front driveshaft. All electric lockers tend to freeze and exercising them will help to smooth things out.

Once you get the center diff lcok working again, do the same with the 4 Lo. Unfortunately you can't shift to 4Lo while in gear or moving. SO just see if it makes a difference if the center diff is locked or not. Usually after a couple of attempts it willstart working. SOemtimes it helps to drive around the block and then try again.

Using syn oil makes the mechanism work slicker and helps, also it helps to warm up the transfer case first by driving around. Once you get it working again, exrcise both a bit till they work quickly.

I find that mine gets finiky if I don't wheel it for a couple of months, but they quickly get happy after a while on the trail.

Good luck, I assume we will see you in wheeling form at the Desert Run then :D

[JP4Crawler]

Well, I got the front done so late last night that I didn't really have a chance to test it out. I went for a drive this morning & the same clunking that caused me to believe the front was bad, is back. So, I opened up the front that I removed & everything looks perfect. The process of elimination now leads me to believe that it may be the T-case. Which I suspected, but after removing the front drive shaft & everything running smoothly, it lead me to believe it was the front diff.

I am thinking that after I blew the rear, & driving out of the canyon, that the T-case was under extreme stress & may have damaged it. I've only had the rear in for 1 wk & maybe the problem is just now letting itself be known. So, after I installed the rear & I took it for a test drive, it took some coercing to get the 4Lo & diff lock to engage, by doing as Andries explained above. Well, maybe that last test drive was the final straw that made the T-case give up. This is my thinking at this point. Any thoughts or ideas are welcome.

I'm certainly not a mechanic either, the only wires we touched were the tire pressure, which aren't really affected anyway. I can turn a wrench a bit, but am lost when it comes to diagnosing. After tackling the front though, I feel much more competent as a weekend wrencher.

Final thought at this point is to order a new T-case & get it in by Fri. Thank you for the explanation, my comprehension of newer vehicles leaves much to be desired. So, should I order the T-case & get it in or ????

Jason

[bulldog]

It is very hard to diagnose over the internet. Quick question is the clunking only when you turn in one direction or when you turn in both directions?

I find it hard to believe that the T-case is at fault, but it is possible.

As I understand the front diff was fine and swapping out did not resolve your problem?

EDIT: I would normally suspect the CV's before anything else for front clunking, after the driveline issues you had.

Off topic
BTW: do you still have the rear 3rd and front diff? I so don't get rid of them yet as they might be useful for doing the locker/gears in the 4Rs.
Back to topic

[JP4Crawler]

I'm definitely keeping the front & rear. I can now send them off when we find gears & save some $$ without taking the 4R off the road & not worrying about the time frame. :bigok: I'm looking on the bright side.

I'll take it in on Mon & get some more opinions, before deciding what to do. We inspected the CV's & they appeared OK, but I'll have that double checked. I'm still not sure about the 4Lo & diff lock, no matter what I tried, it just wouldn't engage. Just getting peoples thoughts is helpfull, as that may lead to something I missed & help solve the prob. So, thanks again.

Jason

[bulldog]

CHeck to see if the clunking is just on one side in the front and also if it gets worse when you accelarate a little in a turn.

CVs might appear fine, but sometime they have a minor crack or something in them that only shows when some power is applied to them. WHen you removed the front driveshaft they had no torque on them.

Not sure why your T-case is stuck now, how many miles did you drive it without the front driveshaft? Maybe drop both driveshafts from the t-case and wiggle the flanges on the T-case in opposite and the same directions by hand while someone plays with the lock and 4-Lo buttons. ALso just for surity recheck the plugs on the T-case. Just unplug them, clean them and plug them back. Simple things to check before you take it in.

Unfortunately this is the best I can think of now, as it is difficult to assess in text.

Good luck.

BTW: I might want to "borrow" your front diff and rear 3rd for gear and locker install. Then you can have mine when it is done :D This way the down time on the trucks will be minimal. After you have done your gears and 3rd you can sell it to the next guy in line :D One way of getting some of your $$$$ back.

[JP4Crawler]

Here is the update:

T/C motor has failed. Upon opening the T/C, there was a washer cracked & a few other washers & snap rings that were showing signs of premature wear. Apparently, the main washer that failed is on back order with Toyota. Curious. I don't know what that means, but it makes me wonder. The bummer is that I could have replaced the T/C & motor for around $600.00, but I wanted to have it back on the rd so bad, I took it to a shop & ordered the motor from the stealership to expedite the situation. Toyota failed to send the parts next day & cost me $1000+ that I could have saved, if I had known I wouldn't have it until next week.

The clunking, that I kept refering to, appears to be the front axles/CV's, but I put priority on the lack of 4Low, so won't know for sure until next wk.

BTW, THE FRONT DIFF WAS IN PERFECT CONDITION. I was jumping to conclusions, out of frustration, before knowing for sure.

I will be more than happy to "loan" my front or rear diff to anyone trying to improve the 4th Gens capability.

Jason

[bulldog]

Man that blows. Hope you get the 4R sorted out. Seems like it didn't like the center diff working overtime. That is a lot of mula to spend on the drivetrain for a fix up, at least you will have plenty of spares now. Once you upgrade the diffs, etc you can probably sell the workign diffs and recoup some $$$$.

Seems like my feeling was right that the front CV's would pop before the diff.

Yeah it would be great to "borrow" the diffs sometime, unfortunately I seem to be SOL on front gears at the moment. SO I will probably wait till early next year to look into it again, unless Allpro gears work out and become availible.

[my034runner]

I just dropped off my034runner at work, got me a Rav4 to drive for a couple of days. :P
Brett's going to see if he can just get me a new third member and be done with it. I'll know tomorrow or the next day. I should be ready to wheel by the weekend!! :bigok:

[bulldog]

I just dropped off my034runner at work, got me a Rav4 to drive for a couple of days. :P
Brett's going to see if he can just get me a new third member and be done with it. I'll know tomorrow or the next day. I should be ready to wheel by the weekend!! :bigok:
Good news, maybe get a few spares to take with. That way we can just swap them on the trail now :rotflmao:

[JP4Crawler]

Good to hear Robert. After you get the new 3rd in, take it easy for a couple days & listen/feel closely for anything unusual. My T/C motor & some spacers/washers in my T/C failed. I don't know if it happened when my rear failed or from driving in just front wheel dr. After replacing my 3rd, a popping sound developed when turning either direction. Several guys claimed CV's/front axles, but since fixing the T/C, everything seems good. I'm keeping an eye on them & will post if anything developes.

Jason

[my034runner]

Good to hear Robert. After you get the new 3rd in, take it easy for a couple days & listen/feel closely for anything unusual. My T/C motor & some spacers/washers in my T/C failed. I don't know if it happened when my rear failed or from driving in just front wheel dr. After replacing my 3rd, a popping sound developed when turning either direction. Several guys claimed CV's/front axles, but since fixing the T/C, everything seems good. I'm keeping an eye on them & will post if anything develops.

Jason


Brett's already ordered my new third member, and it should be here tomorrow!!

So I should be rolling by tomorrow by the time I leave work.

I might go wheel on Sunday, but might go to the big Vegoose concert Sunday and see Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers instead. So if that's the case, wheeling on the following weekend maybe.

Yeah, I'll keep an eye and ear out for anything unusual. Brett's also going to go over everything, front diff, T-case and also change out all the fluids on everything again.
Thanks for the heads up and for your help.

[Cruiserhead]

Robert,
can you take detailed photos of the 3rd? It would be nice to have it to compare to the Prados and FJC's. I am sure it is the same but might somehow help with the rear diff problem they are having.

[bulldog]

Brett's already ordered my new third member, and it should be here tomorrow!!

So I should be rolling by tomorrow by the time I leave work.

I might go wheel on Sunday, but might go to the big Vegoose concert Sunday and see Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers instead. So if that's the case, wheeling on the following weekend maybe.

Yeah, I'll keep an eye and ear out for anything unusual. Brett's also going to go over everything, front diff, T-case and also change out all the fluids on everything again.
Thanks for the heads up and for your help.
If it is a brand new 3rd you might want to break it in, before you break it on the trail again :flipoff:

DO at least a couple hunderd easy miles before hitting a trail. You don't want to get another 3rd soon.

Lucky to have good contacts hey :D So now we know if anybody else pops theirs, we can just swap it with yours and you can have it fixed at the shop :rotflmao:

[bulldog]

Robert,
can you take detailed photos of the 3rd? It would be nice to have it to compare to the Prados and FJC's. I am sure it is the same but might somehow help with the rear diff problem they are having.
Interesting that you bring it up. The 4 spd 4R has 3.909 rear gears, same as the MT FJC. As far as I know it is exactly the same 3rd if it is a unlocked FJC.

Ring gear stripping teeth due to deflection.

Jason has 3.727 gears though and same problem.

[my034runner]

Robert,
can you take detailed photos of the 3rd? It would be nice to have it to compare to the Prados and FJC's. I am sure it is the same but might somehow help with the rear diff problem they are having.


If you're talking about the blown one, there's plenty of photo's of it in the trip report.

If you're talking about the new one, I'll try. It depends if it arrives tomorrow, and if Brett tells me when it gets here. We'll see.

[Cruiserhead]

oh yeah I meant the blown one but now that you say it, some of the new one would be good just to see if there are any changes.

[my034runner]

oh yeah I meant the blown one but now that you say it, some of the new one would be good just to see if there are any changes.


I've got a Toyota truck class that I have to go to from 8:00am till 1:00pm. for work. I'll go to the shop when I get back and see if he's already got it in yet or not. He said that it should be there before he gets to work. So if it is, he'll more than likely already have it in.
But if not, I'll gladly take some pics. :wavey:

[my034runner]

My new third member (differential) is in. Sorry, but no pictures, as Brett already had it in before I got back from the Toyota truck class this morning. He said that he had it installed about 30 minutes after he got in this morning. :D

[bulldog]

My new third member (differential) is in. Sorry, but no pictures, as Brett already had it in before I got back from the Toyota truck class this morning. He said that he had it installed about 30 minutes after he got in this morning. :D
COngrats, now don't go breaking it again. Any time soon that is. :guns:

[my034runner]

Congrats, now don't go breaking it again. Any time soon that is. :guns:


It took me 30k miles and a couple of years to break that one. So maybe another 30K and a couple of more years!

Oh, on a side note, in the Toyota truck class this morning, he showed us the 10.5" ring gear that's going into the 5.7L, and also found out that the 5.7 liter is going to be close to 400 bhp! :shocked:
The 4.7 L and 4.0 V6 will have 9.5" ring gears.

Also, A-Trac!! In a Tundra! :D