Am I kidding myself? (Stock Skids/Suspension)

[Astrotraveler]

Hiya. I have an '09 4Runner Trail Edition. It's basically an SR5 with DAC deleted and a factory locking rear differential added. It runs of 16" wheels with 265/70-16 tires and a factory non-adjustable Bilstein suspension stock.

I purchased the vehicle with a couple of goals in mind. First, to be used to transport astronomy gear to low-population, dark sky observing sites. These could range from alpine too desert zones, and are generally accessed via Class 1 or Class 2 trails. Second, to do some moderate off-roading just for camping, photography and fun. This would include Class 1 through Class 3 trails in Death Valley, the Mojave National Preserve, some of the southern California BLM Back Country Byways, as well as sites further afield such as the Escalante area of southern Utah, parts of rural New Mexico and northern Arizona.

My main question is this: What do I really need to change about the truck to accomplish these goals safely assuming I am traveling solo most of the time?

Here are some sub-questions:

1. Can I get by on the stock skid plates?

They look awfully thin, but they are clearly better than no skid plates at all. My last off road vehicle ('07 Subaru Forester) lacked a low range, had only 8" of ground clearance, had crap approach and departure angles and had no skid plates at all, and I managed to get by with only a few scrapes on the plastic under covers.

2. Can I get by with the stock suspension (and NO LIFT)?

I believe it is similar to the Bilstein suspension included on the special edition FJ Cruiser. I don't know whether the springs are 4Runner SR5 springs or are lifted off the FJ as well. Toyota really doesn't give Trail Edition specific dimension and capacity information. I'm assuming that mine has the same 9.1" of claimed clearance that an SR5 has, but maybe I have a bit more. I'm not sure where to measure to find out.

In fact, I think Toyota wasn't really fixed on the package contents when the Trail Editions started rolling off the line. For example, the Trail Edition is supposed to delete the SR5's fog lamps. The unit tested by Car & Driver, a unit I saw pictures of from a Reno-area dealership and mine all have factory fog lamps. From the press photos and from dealership interior shots online, the Trail Edition is supposed to have both the leather-wrapped steering wheel and the leather wrapped shift leather. I have the steering wheel but my shift lever is the one from the stock, non-Value Packaged SR-5 (black textured rubber with a slick black plastic insert.

3. Can I get by with the stock tire size? (I am swapping tires in any case as I can't stand the Dunlops on the dirt tracks in local dairy pastures).

I noticed that the only D-rated tire I can get in the stock size is the BFG A/T KO. The Bridgestone Revos in that size provide no rating (C, D or E) so I'm not sure what to make of it. I am tempted to size-up just a tad (to 265/75-16) but it's about 50-50 as to whether folks who have done that have had rubbing. Bulldog had some rubbing with up-sized Revos whereas another member was able to run upsized BFG KOs on the stock suspension without rubbing. I wanna avoid rubbing if possible. On the other hand, there's a much better selection of D-rated and E-rated tires available if I size up.

4. If I don't change suspension, tire size or the skid plates, is there any point in getting sliders anyway?

It may be that my "Class 3 and easier" trail interests make sliders or rock rails unnecessary. I dunno. I've never had sliders before.

Thanks a bunch. If you think I need to change something above, let me know what you've done modification-wise with your ride and whether you liked it or still need to make changes.

Regards,

Jim

[Photog]

If you do not lift the 4Runner, I would highly suggest getting skid plates and maybe sliders.

If you are looking at D rated tires, it sounds like you will be carrying a bit of extra weight. If so; you will definitely need some stiffer springs. With the factory springs and a load, you will loose what little ground clearance you have now.

If you are trying to keep it simple, carry some weight (scopes, camping gear, etc.) travel the back country; then I would suggest a 3" front and 2" rear lift, with a load carying spring in the rear. The rear springs could be the +15% springs from Icon, All Pro or ToyTech, or the OME springs. Get the proper shocks to go with them. If you are not adding any weight to the front, you may be able to get away with just spacers or adjustable Bilstiens. Most folks prefer the OME springs or coil-overs.

To keep the tires simple, go with a 265/75R16. It is almost 32" tall, and should need the least trimming. If you reposition the plastic in the forward portion of the front fenderwell, you may not need to trim anything. You may need to remove the mud flaps. Another option is to switch to 17" wheels and get the 255/75R17 tires.

I have sliders to make it easier for wife to get in 4Runner, and to provide a jacking point. They have not taken any hits yet, on the trails. Maybe my trail choices are too tame. The trails are at least level 3 (5 point scale).

If you learned how to protect your Subi, then you will likely be fine with a lift and tires. If you start running into trails that need more protection, and you turn back; then it may be time to add more protection.

[expat]

If the trails you are expecting to use are the same that you used with the Subie, and you got thru ok with the Subi only getting a few scratches, then I would suggest

1. Spacer lift and 32" tires

If you have to worry about occasionally climbing over rocks on some of the trails then

2. Spacer lift, 32"s and skids to protect the engine

If you are often going to be climbing rocks (expanding upon your past experience with the Subie, then

3. Spacer lift, 32's, skids and sliders

You will go a LONG way on these simple mods.

Personally I would not be bothered with major suspension changes (coils, shocks, coilovers) unless you are looking for a lot more articulation, running fast over rough roads, carrying heavy loads for extended periods or looking for max lift possible.

[bulldog]

Just to add.

The stock 4Runner will do much more than the Subi, but form your descriptions it sounded like you wanted to do some harder trails to get to you destination.

I would suggest that you run the 4Runner as is and see what it does for you, just to get a feel of what it can or can't do. You can always turn around or work through and obstacle using good sense.

The stock tires are no great shakes, but many of us have wheeled some interesting trails with them. The biggest thing with good AT tires are that they are more likely to resist punctures, as well as the added traction (might not be a big deal to you).

Remove the running boards if you are likely to hit them. It will create a lot of extra clearance on the side as well.

See the trip report section for some ideas of what is done with these things stock. Below is a Video of Mark doing Gold Mountain trail with only a little spacer lift. Stock tires and no sliders.
http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/bigbear05/bbb05.mpg

I think sometimes we project our own needs/wants on others on these forums. A stock 4Runner is very capable and when driven with good sense can do amazing things.

Maybe come to Hollister Hills on a run one of these days to see what you can do in stock form. Just pull the running boards. I think that will give you first hand experience of what to expect. We might do a quick run in a couple of weeks.

[Astrotraveler]

I really enjoy this forum. Thanks for the feedback so far.

I have a couple of quick follow-up questions. Expat's comment got me reading up on spacer lifts. It sounds like this might be a good intermediate option for my needs.

Were I to add the Daystar spacer lift and 265/75-16 tires, what kind of extra strain am I likely to be putting on my truck?

The rear loads I carry aren't that large - figure 200# of telescopes, mounts and a battery/power supply, and another 100# of camping gear, food, ice chest, water, etc. Would such a load (300#) actually help reduce rear harshness on a spacer lifted truck, or is that enough of a load that I should consider other solutions?

Were I to go instead with a light duty OME lift kit and 265/75-16 tires, would there be less increased strain/wear than there would be with a spacer lift?

I am ping-ponging between two poles; on one side I am considering the incremental upgrades (minimal cost and instant short-term gratification) and on the other I am considering doing more significant upgrades at the outset to cover anything I can anticipate ever wanting to do in the truck.

The video is prime stuff. That route up to the "First Obstacle" looks about like the harder trails I've tackled in my stock Subaru, though you guys are going quite a bit faster than I would go in the Forester. I loved the soundtrack.

One advantage I see of going the spacer lift route (besides cost, and assuming that it doesn't stress other systems in the truck excessively) is that it allows me to upgrade to my target tire size (265/75-16) now, and then continue to use the new, larger tires later should I graduate to an OME kit.

Also, I generally have 500 (SoCal destert) to 1000 (Four Corners region) miles of highway to cross to get to and back from the places I'll be wheeling. Retaining a nice comfy highway ride, therefore, is also a big plus.

Regards,

Jim

[expat]

I agree totally with Andries about projecting our wants on others.

I have been a strong advocate of remembering where we all (many) came from - spacer lifts.

We did a bunch of miles on trails with Daystar or the like. Mine were actually hand me downs from Andries (or was it James?) who were amongst the first guys modifying 4th gens 4-5yrs ago.

I remember doing Death Valley with 2 adults and 2 kids and a weeks worth of camping gear in a totally stock 4R (Dunlops and running boards) and running trails that took some darn good spotting (by others) to get me over, but we got thru unscathed. Sooo...spacers are a great place to start and they won't stress anything. I think the Cornfed spacers are probably the most popular these days.

The only difficulty I see is deciding on whether to spend a little more ($) and going OME which really give you more option in relation to speed you can carry over rough terrain.

Ultimately its your decision based on what's right for you.

[bulldog]

To put the video in perspective, you will not be able to get a stock Subaru up that obstacle without spending hours stacking rocks. I put a few pix below to give better idea of the terrain.

300# is no great deal to carry in the back of a 4Runner, even with stock setup. As Mark said he went to DV with the whole family, gear, etc in a bone stock 4Runner and came out just fine.

I would really suggest that we go out to Hollister sometime and you can go through various trails and obstacles to see what your 4Runner does stock. This will give you a much better feel of what/if any mods you need for the trails you do/plan to do. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how capable these vehicles are.

The 4Runner is a pretty robust vehicle and handle mods really well. So no real worries about long term effect of many mods.

http://www.ezdries.net/assets/images/db_images/db_43henry_obstacle1.jpg

http://www.ezdries.net/assets/images/db_images/db_39mark_up_GM1.jpg

[Astrotraveler]

Thanks Andries. I think I will give Hollister a shot. Out of curiosity why do Honda minivans and Pilots need a flag to use Hollister (i.e., why not also RX350s, Highlanders, Siennas, Chrysler Town & Countries, etc.)? I saw the requirement in Rules and Regulations on the Hollister OHV park website. Pretty odd.

Regards,

Jim

[bulldog]

Honda's are probably too close to the Honda ATV and motor cycles :jester: I had no idea they required it for Hondas. Funny though :D

[MysticZ]

Thanks Andries. I think I will give Hollister a shot. Out of curiosity why do Honda minivans and Pilots need a flag to use Hollister (i.e., why not also RX350s, Highlanders, Siennas, Chrysler Town & Countries, etc.)? I saw the requirement in Rules and Regulations on the Hollister OHV park website. Pretty odd.

Regards,

Jim

I think they mean the ATV Odyssey and Pilot not the automobiles.

Odysseys and Pilots must have a Whip and Flag to operate in the Upper Ranch. The Whip must extend eight feet from the ground to the top when the vehicle is stopped and a Flag (minimum 6" by 12") must be attached within 10 inches from the top.

[Astrotraveler]

You're right MysticZ. I'd forgotten that Honda made ATVs under the Pilot and Odyssey brands. Those are very low compared to the newer, taller Honda ATVs. Flags make sense.

Thanks,

Jim

[WillRunner05]

I agree, they are talking about dirt bikes and dune buggies, those Honda automobiles that share the same name are on Uni-body platforms and aren't true 4WD vehicles.

I also had a Revtek Spacer kit on my Runner for over 3 years and it handled just fine even after Jumping it multiple times. :cool1:

[MysticZ]

I ran a Daystar comfort lift for a few years and took my Runner all sort of places with about 300lbs of gear in the back. Even though it's a 2wd it did it's best to keep up with the 4wd members.:rockon:

[Astrotraveler]

MystikZ:

When you were running the Daystar Comfortlift kit, what size tires were you running?

Thanks!

- Jim

[MysticZ]

MystikZ:

When you were running the Daystar Comfortlift kit, what size tires were you running?

Thanks!

- Jim

I was running Nitto Terra Grapplers AT's 265/70/17.

[shad0w]

If you're going to be running solo most of the time (same here) be sure to have all your recovery tools.

1. I think you'll be "ok" with the stock skids for now. I also plan on getting BudBuilt skids in the future but for now I'll experiment with the truck's limits.

2. They are in fact the same silver Bilsteins that came on the Trail Teams FJ. I would guess they also used the same springs. I was thinking about leveling the front by using OME 883 springs on the stock shocks... but I think I'll just save up for Icon coilovers. Mine also has the fog lights and leather steering wheel, but I also got a leather shif knob.

3. I also have a '06 Tacoma (same stock tire size) and upgraded to 265/75/16 Nitto Terra Grapplers with zero rubbing. When I get the chance I'll swap them over to see if there's any rubbing.. I think they'll be fine.

4. Demello bolt-on sliders (http://www.toyota120.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7322) will be one of my first mods.

[Astrotraveler]

As for recovery tools, I'm looking at a Viair portable compressor, an accurate tire gauge, a couple of ARB snatch straps, a Hi-Lift jack, a floor jack, a manual tire pump and a tire plug kit. I'm also tempted by those pseudo sand ladder things that look like fiberglass rectangles with box pattern cut-outs.

If we're running the FJ springs, I wonder if the TE has either more ground clearance than the SR5, or more articulation, or both. :confused:

It's funny that we both have fog lamps when they are supposed to be deleted. I'm bummed that I got the stock SR5 plastic shifter. I was trying to get the Japanese TRD leather shifter, but can't find a US dealer that can actually get one. Now I'm looking at a used Lexus LX470 leather and wood shifter. It should fit. If so, I'll also add walnut dash kit pieces matching the shifter in the locations where the Urban Runners use the black wood trim (i.e., under-climate-control tilt out storage slot door, top and bottom sections around the cupholders and over the silver door trim stripes).

I hate the TomTom unit. I've updated it to the latest software and mine still randomly re-boots on long trips. I tried to back-up my map data to a faster flash card, but when I insert the new card into the TomTom it asks for an authorization code. This is my fourth TomTom device, and the only one to not come with an authorization code on a plastic card. Perhaps the dealership my dealership obtained the TE from lost it? At any rate, I can't effectively back up my data or upgrade to a faster flash card without the code. Toyota says it's a TomTom issue and TomTom says it's a Toyota issue.

My solution? I'm going to chuck the stock Eclipse stereo/TomTom navi unit and stock speakers and upgrade to a nice Alpine or Pioneer head unit and matched speakers, and then use a separate TomTom or Garmin for road trips.

Enjoy your new ride. Are you thinking about attending the September Mojave Road trip for this forum? I'm trying to make it work. I'll be starting a new job next month, but am negotiating some leave time in the fall. I hope it works out.

Later,

Jim

[MCL_68]

Sorry to go off topic,You were looking for a US dealer for the Japanese TRD leather knob.I got mine at Carson toyota in southern california,They stock them.FYI it's not cheap,If you're still interested.http://www.newtoyotaparts.com/product/?id=660 :bigok:

[Astrotraveler]

Thanks for the link to a supplier. Much obliged.

Regards,

Jim

[BlairB]

If you do decide you want to take a spacer route, shoot me a PM as I am taking mine off in the next few weeks and will be looking to sell them.

Even without a lift though, you will be amazed where you can get with a stock 4Runner! It is a very capable vehicle.

[Astrotraveler]

Thanks Blair. After reading some horror stories (and a lot of bickering) regarding spacer lifts on TTORA, I've decided to do as follows: I'm going to go the plus zero (i.e., 265/75-16) tire route and some rails/skids. If there's no rubbing with the slight tire size upgrade, I'm good for now. If there's some rubbing, I'd rather not trim the liners and will likely either do a mild spacer lift (in which case I'll ping ya!) or possibly the OME light/stock full kit. It seems a shame to monkey with a brand new suspension however given that the stock TE uses pretty decent non-adjustable Bilsteins and and springs from FJC special edition.

I think I'm going to try something different for tires. When I swapped the stock all-season Yokohama Geosquealers off of my old Forester, I replaced them with Yokohama Geolandar A/T-S tires. These were the only A/T tire available in the Stock Subaru size. Those tires worked really well on the lightweight Forester allowing me to tackle some short Class 3 (5-point scale) tracks and lots of Class 2 trails. I can get the same tire in a D load rating (and LT designation) in a 265/75-16. It looks somewhat similar to the Bridegestone Dueler A/T Revo in tread design style (as opposed to the tread block style of the BFG T/A KOs or General Grabber 2s). I just don't see many posts on any of the 4Runner forums about these tires.

America's Tire Co. (aka Discount Tire Co.) has them in stock in my area in the size I want, and unlike some tire dealers has no problem installing a slightly over-sized tire. I figure that alone will net me between 0.4" and 0.5" extra clearance, which puts me at the same clearance as a stock FJC and close to a stock Land Cruiser from a generation ago. I would love to hit some trails in the desert in July, but most folks I've talked to counsel against July desert wheeling trips. As a result, I've ordered a couple of northern California guide books and plan on tackling the trails locally and in the Sierra rated at Moderate or Easy in Tony Huegel's Guide until I get used to the truck and before I add any further modifications.

Regards,

Jim