PDA

View Full Version : 1.5" Body lift


Pages : [1] 2

bulldog
11-19-2006, 02:43 PM
Well I ordered the body lift for the 4Runner. I got 1.5" with HD hardware and radiator brackets.

Still trying to see if I can get Roger Brown to install it, but seems like he can only do it in late December. So I might do it myself, will see how I feel. I need to get this done, before I can take my truck to 4x4labs for some work.

Hopefully this will allow the gas tank to be relocated a bit higher. It is definitely required IMHO to fit larger tires, even with 32" tires I find rubbing on the front inner fender when running hard in the dunes. Nowhere else it seems to be a problem, but I'm aiming for 34" tires (ctually they are very close in size to 35" tires) 305/70/17 MTRs on 17x8 AR wheels (still need to get the right style I like). This will be an interesting experiment, as the 305s are 34" in diameter while the 315/75/16 (normal 35") are 34.8" diameter. Both are pretty much the same width.

Might as well get the BL and armor done, while I wait for gears in the new year.

As a side effect of the BL I might drop my Hanna sliders and get sliders that are located an inch or so higher. Probably get the hybrid Demello's soemtime, will have to see how things pan out first. So if anybody in Cali is looking at getting bolt on Hannas sometime early next year, maybe give me a shout.

RapidRunner
11-19-2006, 10:11 PM
Well I ordered the body lift for the 4Runner. I got 1.5" with HD hardware and radiator brackets.

Still trying to see if I can get Roger Brown to install it, but seems like he can only do it in late December. So I might do it myself, will see how I feel. I need to get this done, before I can take my truck to 4x4labs for some work.

Hopefully this will allow the gas tank to be relocated a bit higher. It is definitely required IMHO to fit larger tires, even with 32" tires I find rubbing on the front inner fender when running hard in the dunes. Nowhere else it seems to be a problem, but I'm aiming for 34" tires (ctually they are very close in size to 35" tires) 305/70/17 MTRs on 17x8 AR wheels (still need to get the right style I like). This will be an interesting experiment, as the 305s are 34" in diameter while the 315/75/16 (normal 35") are 34.8" diameter. Both are pretty much the same width.

Might as well get the BL and armor done, while I wait for gears in the new year.

As a side effect of the BL I might drop my Hanna sliders and get sliders that are located an inch or so higher. Probably get the hybrid Demello's soemtime, will have to see how things pan out first. So if anybody in Cali is looking at getting bolt on Hannas sometime early next year, maybe give me a shout.

Keep us posted -- I'm looking to do pretty much the same things -- I've got 285/70-17 MT/R's now but want to move up.

bulldog
11-19-2006, 10:17 PM
Keep us posted -- I'm looking to do pretty much the same things -- I've got 285/70-17 MT/R's now but want to move up.
Will do. It will take soem time though as I want 4x4labs to do some nip adn tuck as well.

At least a BL will solve your slider rubbing issues :P

expat
11-19-2006, 10:18 PM
Is there such a thing as a RB body lift kit?

"4Crawler Offroad is the name of the company that was created and is owned by Roger Brown. So some people mistakingly call the kits "RB" or "Roger Brown" body lift kits. 4Crawler Offroad would like to encourage everyone to use the official company name when referring to these products to help avoid confusion and for legal reasons as well. It would be the same as walking into your local computer store and asking for a copy of "Bill Gates Word" or "Larry Ellison Database" software. Hopefully you would get what you were looking for, but you may not. So, to answer the Frequently Asked Question "Where can I find an RB body lift kit?" The answer is there is no such a thing." :jester:

Give us the skinny - what specifically did you order in your kit and did you buy it from 4Crawler or elsewhere?

Thanks
Mark

bulldog
11-19-2006, 10:23 PM
Yep, I bought it from 4Crawler.
Here is the link to the 4th Gen Body Lifts, since his site is a bit of a mess to navigate.
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/Toyota4RunnerBodyLift.shtml#GenIV

I got
Kits: D+HD+RAD+CLR+DOC
Color black.

So I will see what I get. Wasn't cheap as the total with tax and shipping is $155, since I got the oversize lift spacers and HD hardware. Also custom color and radiator brackets.

I'm sure it is going to be a PITA to install, since I will have to drop the sliders to lift the body. Also a zillion other things to look at.

expat
12-15-2006, 06:12 PM
How long did it take from your order to receipt?

If you do decide to do it yourself, please post up a date. I'd come up and watch/drink beer/verbally abuse and insult you. :moon:

Thanks
Mark

bulldog
12-15-2006, 06:25 PM
It took 3 weeks for mine, but I think Roger was on vacation. I will let you know when I do mine. I have done some homework in regards to where all the things are and how to get to the bodymount bolts. It will make it a lot easier if you pop up or I go down to innstall it. We can probably do both if you have yours by then.

I will definitely take some pics to document either way.

Did you get the 1.5" also?

expat
12-15-2006, 06:39 PM
Yup. Got the 1.5 + all the stuff you had ordered.

3 weeks..... :cry:

Man, I was thinking maybe a week on the outside.

Oh well. I might give them a call to see when they anticipate delivery. Will know better then when I can get this done.

Thx

bulldog
12-15-2006, 06:46 PM
Yours might be a lot quicker. He had a notice on the website when i ordered that said they were in limited production for a few eeks, end Nov and early Dec.

97kurt
12-15-2006, 06:50 PM
Another thing you guys will want to look at is the spare tire carrier. A few people with 3rd gens have modified the piece that holds the lowering mech. When you do a body lift you can raise the whole assembly up to get your spare out of the way. Sonoran Steve I think has the pictures on his site somewhere.

Not sure if this will be usefull or not to you guys since its not like you can fit a bigger tire under there anyways.

expat
12-15-2006, 10:45 PM
Thx Kurt. Saw that by Steve.

Just thinking out loud but I wonder what reinforcement is used in the FJ's and the like to attach the spare to the tailgate. I know that our t-gates open upward but....if your could buy a mounting plate....

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/FJspare.jpg


crap that's ugly.....oh nevermind :rolleyes:

AlexJet
12-16-2006, 12:45 PM
It took 3 weeks for mine, but I think Roger was on vacation. I will let you know when I do mine. I have done some homework in regards to where all the things are and how to get to the bodymount bolts. It will make it a lot easier if you pop up or I go down to innstall it. We can probably do both if you have yours by then.
I will definitely take some pics to document either way.
Did you get the 1.5" also?

I got mine 1.25 from him in 1 week. Looks like it was a fast service :D But it still sitting in my garage for more then 4 month now. Do not have time to put it on. :(

Tucson T4R
12-17-2006, 07:49 AM
I ordered a minimal 1/2" BL from him last week (just 1/2" oversized spacers). I'll let ya know when it arrives. My intent is only to add more clearance between the body and the bumper and sliders where they bolt together above the frame. 90% of the time it's not a problem but when running hard in rough country I get contact that I want to eliminate.

expat
12-23-2006, 08:15 PM
Couple of questions/comments I have been unable to confirm for the 4th gen and body lifts, although I have my own ideas...

1. Does the filler neck for the gas tank need extending and if so how?

2. Does the shifter for the trans. need any adjustment and will it just be shorter in appearance in the cabin?

3. How does the rear bumper (which has a lip under the chassis) move upwards without significant bending - does the lip need to be cut off? I seem to remember Rocky mentioning something about this but I couldn't find her comments?

4. Do the brake lines or any other hoses need extending? (I know my rear diff. breather extension has enough length just to pull up some more).

I guess I could bother Lance (again). Rocky...where are ya? :hidebc:

kdubz
12-23-2006, 09:37 PM
mispost ...

bulldog
12-24-2006, 01:36 AM
Couple of questions/comments I have been unable to confirm for the 4th gen and body lifts, although I have my own ideas...

1. Does the filler neck for the gas tank need extending and if so how?

2. Does the shifter for the trans. need any adjustment and will it just be shorter in appearance in the cabin?

3. How does the rear bumper (which has a lip under the chassis) move upwards without significant bending - does the lip need to be cut off? I seem to remember Rocky mentioning something about this but I couldn't find her comments?

4. Do the brake lines or any other hoses need extending? (I know my rear diff. breather extension has enough length just to pull up some more).

I guess I could bother Lance (again). Rocky...where are ya? :hidebc:


As I understand it.

1. No
2. The trans shifter is a cable connection and the shifter itself mounted to the body. So no worries.
3. Not sure, I believe there is enough room to move. My clips on the rear bumper are ripped off for the most part anyhow.
4. No.

I guess I will find out all these questions in detail this coming week, but from all my reading the biggest things to watch are the radiator fanshroud and steering slip joint.

K6UK
12-24-2006, 08:54 AM
The rear bumper doesn't have to be cut for the 1" lift, but for the 1.5" yes, it needs to be trimmed. I'm not sure on the 1.25"

-Mike

expat
12-24-2006, 01:52 PM
The rear bumper doesn't have to be cut for the 1" lift, but for the 1.5" yes, it needs to be trimmed. I'm not sure on the 1.25"

-Mike

Mike, can you be more explicit about trimming for the 1.5"? What parts of the bumper need trimming that you are aware of?

My clips are pulled off too so I was going to just grind them off anyhow.

Thx.

K6UK
12-24-2006, 03:24 PM
Well, I haven't seen it in person... but from what I read on another forum with 1.5" you need to trim the bottom of the bumper. I went with the 1" and so didn't have that issue to deal with.

-Mike

Tucson T4R
12-27-2006, 02:59 PM
I just installed my 4Crawler 1/2" body lift. The 1/2" inch lift gave just the clearance I was looking for between my body and bumper/sliders.:D I also didn't have to do anything with the rear bumper. even my clips are still in place.

The one thing that was a little bit of a PITA was the passenger side front mount. That mount bolt is directly under the washer bottle, I had to unbolt the three washer bottle mounting bolts so I could move the bottle enough to access the body mount bolt from the top. Not a huge deal, just an added hastle on this model 4Runner.

All and all I like the minor lift and the rest of the install was a piece-o-cake.:bigok:

expat
12-27-2006, 10:20 PM
Cool! Thx for the update. Hope the 1.5" goes as smooth although need to do the radiator drop too.

bulldog
12-29-2006, 12:11 AM
Mark adn I did our 1.5" body lifts today, and I must say it was a 4-5 out of 10 banana job. Adding the extra inch does take a lot more effort, especially since we had to add the HD hardware and radiator brackets.

We will post up pics and make a good write up out of it over the next week or so. It will definitely be well worth reading before you try to do it yourself.

Mikestang
01-05-2007, 08:47 PM
:worthless

bulldog
01-05-2007, 08:48 PM
Be patient, working on a nice write up :moon:

expat
01-05-2007, 09:05 PM
Teasers....grrrrr.

expat
01-05-2007, 09:12 PM
try again...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/BodyLiftinstal024.jpg

expat
01-06-2007, 05:27 PM
One thing to be aware of is that existing sliders won't look good after the body lift

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/sliders/hannasliders019.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/sliders/hannasliders020.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/sliders/hannasliders018.jpg

So I'll be selling mine (see For sale Section) and buying new ones.

bulldog
01-06-2007, 06:30 PM
New sliders will definitely look better. Those Hanna's are up for a steal, so I hope someone grabs them quick.

The good thing about lifting the sliders are that you will have more clearance on the side now as well.

I think Shrockworks and Demello makes sliders that are higher for a body lift. SW is bolt on and Demello is weld on. I would suggest only getting 1" higher mount on the sliders to leave the 1/2" gap for wiggle room.

On a different note. I will be posting up a write up on the body lift install over the weekend.

chiefiji
01-06-2007, 06:51 PM
how would you guys rate the difficulty in doing the body lift work compared to installing the sw bumper/ome lift/spacer/etc ?

expat
01-06-2007, 07:49 PM
Bullbar was not difficult but fiddly, so I would rate that a 6/10 compared to the body lift which I would rate at a 4.5/10.

Of course that's with knowing what I know now about both procedures.

Seriously, the body lift was very easy. Andries and I were just super slow at making sure we covered our bases as we had not read any installation guide related to the 4th gen so we (well at least I) felt I was in untest waters somewhat.

While a step by step guide from us is forthcoming, and it appears a lot of steps, I would feel confident in saying the main process was

1. Remove your SW bumper (easier to get at radiator and front mounts)
2. Loosen off nuts all round
3. Undo nuts and jack up one side
4. Remove bolts on that side and slide spacers into place
5. Lower that side and loosely tighten nuts then repeat on other side
6. Tighten all nuts
7. Lower radiator with brackets
8. Go have some fun!

Over simplified but definitely a DIY'er job and one that should be real easy with someone who has done it once (or more) previously.

My guess would be Andries or I could have it done in three hours if we did it again.

The bullbar however would still take me as long as the first time if I had to do it again because there were so many fiddly bits to sort out.

bulldog
01-07-2007, 04:45 PM
Here is the Body lift write up with lots of pictures.
http://www.toyota120.com/html/4crawler_body_lift.html

Enjoy!!

Cruiserhead
01-07-2007, 05:25 PM
jeez andries, your truck is getting TALL :D

bulldog
01-07-2007, 05:29 PM
jeez andries, your truck is getting TALL :D

As long as it fits in the garage with a roofrack when all is said and done. I don't really like the height to be honest, but I guess you need it to get the clearance.

Tucson T4R
01-07-2007, 08:44 PM
Andries,

Great write up on the lift. :bigok:

As in any group of folks, we are all unique, with individual needs and desires. My 3" suspension lift with the added 1/2" BL to give the clearence I wanted between my body and bumper/sliders, gives me the exact lift I want.

I have owned four wheelers in the past that I have taken to more hieghts with 4" lifts, 588 gears, & 33" tires. They were very fun and did extreemly well offroad. For my current 4Runner, which is my daily driver, I am trying to find a balance between what still works well on the street and also gives me the off road capabilities I want. As you all know, that's not an easy balance and would be a different combination for each person you ask. :confused1

I just wanted to compliment everyone on this forum for their highly technical approach to every modification and their willingness to accept the wide range of individuals that share their passion.:bigok:

Mikestang
01-07-2007, 10:25 PM
Here is the Body lift write up with lots of pictures.
http://www.toyota120.com/html/4crawler_body_lift.html

Enjoy!!

Good info, thanks.

my034runner
01-08-2007, 12:08 AM
That looks killer. Really great write up Andries & Mark!:bow: :bow:

Any problems with the rear Tupperware?

bulldog
01-08-2007, 09:22 AM
That looks killer. Really great write up Andries & Mark!:bow: :bow:

Any problems with the rear Tupperware?

My rear bumper pulled a bit tight and have some gaps around the center piece. Mark's came out pretty nice though.

my034runner
01-08-2007, 12:12 PM
My rear bumper pulled a bit tight and have some gaps around the center piece. Mark's came out pretty nice though.

Do you guys have any pictures of either of your rear Tupperware to show?

bulldog
01-08-2007, 02:59 PM
Do you guys have any pictures of either of your rear Tupperware to show?

I'm sure I can take some pics sometime.

Mikestang
01-08-2007, 04:19 PM
Be careful you guys don't punch the mounts through the body when you're out jumping dunes and stuff:
http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=28427

bulldog
01-08-2007, 04:27 PM
Be careful you guys don't punch the mounts through the body when you're out jumping dunes and stuff:
http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=28427

Yep a very valid concern. That is the reason we went with the heavy duty kit, as it has 2.5" diameter spacers under the cabin and only a 2" spacer by the front fender. The nirmal kit has only 2" diameter spacers. I don't think we will these issues with the 4Crawler kit though.

ANother side advantage of the HD kit is that the bolts fit pretty tight in the body holes now.

Lastly we also upgraded the washers to bigger ones.

All in all I will be highly surpised if we run into issues like this.

bulldog
01-08-2007, 08:52 PM
I filled my washer bottle today and noticed that once I go over 1 gal it leaks the fluid out. It seems that the filler tube is not prperly seated in the bottle iself. It never used to do it, so something I will need to check this week.

Can probably do it when I take some pics of the rear bumper. I also noticed than on mine the rear body mount bolt sticks out below the bumper now. Not a big deal as I want another bumper in the back anyhow.

onfly
01-09-2007, 10:43 PM
Andries,

Excellent write up on the body lift!
I may consider doing one in the future.
Truck looks GREAT!!


Juan

bulldog
01-09-2007, 11:24 PM
Andries,

Excellent write up on the body lift!
I may consider doing one in the future.
Truck looks GREAT!!


Juan

Glad you like it. COuldn't have done it without Mark's help wrenching and pics though.

Mikestang
01-10-2007, 12:01 AM
What did you guys do about the front bumpers? New brackets or live with a large gap? What are you guys looking at for slider replacements?

expat
01-10-2007, 12:36 AM
What did you guys do about the front bumpers? New brackets or live with a large gap? What are you guys looking at for slider replacements?

We remove the bumpers and bought new ones from ARB with a custom fit.
































Nah..just removed them, moved the radiator down, and reinstalled the bullbars one hole higher up. I have a quarter inch more gap than before which I needed because the bullbar was nearly touching the fender. Instead of using four holes for the mounting, we now use three - which was always the plan and the benefit of the SW bar.

I think Andries is going with the Hybrid Demello sliders. I haven't decided. Maybe SW but price point is an issue for me. I think I want to remain with bolt on's because my truck will still be a DD whereas Andries is moving towards an full on expedition vehicle and has the luxury of another DD.

bulldog
01-10-2007, 12:47 AM
That is the reason we got the SW bumpers as they allow lots of adjustment. Only thing is that my current SS skid doesn't fit anymore. It might be able to fit after soem bendign and drilling new holes, but I will probably just get a new skid.

I am heavily leaning towards the Demello hybrid sliders with 1" higher fitment. Still need to pull the trigger.

bulldog
01-13-2007, 04:21 PM
Fixed the washer bottle leak. The fillter tube goes into a rubber seal on the tank itself. Teh seal was pushed in on a few spots. To fix I had to pull the whole filler tube assembly, reseat the seal. Then insert just the tube itself and then add the top part with cap and body clip. Just FYI if you run into it in the future, once you take out the assembly you will see what I mean.

Below are pics of my rear bumper now. Mark's came out much better. I think part my problem is that I have pretty much beat my rear bumper to shreds in paces and some of the clips and mounts are torn out.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/ezdries/Body%20Lift/PICT0001.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/ezdries/Body%20Lift/PICT0003.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/ezdries/Body%20Lift/PICT0004.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/ezdries/Body%20Lift/PICT0005-1.jpg

expat
01-13-2007, 04:40 PM
yes, mine are no where near as bad as those posted above.

Andries - do you notice that the first photo shows only a link. I have been having this trouble when posting mutiple photos in one thread on this forum in the past two weeks (since upgrade??).

bulldog
01-13-2007, 04:46 PM
yes, mine are no where near as bad as those posted above.

Andries - do you notice that the first photo shows only a link. I have been having this trouble when posting mutiple photos in one thread on this forum in the past two weeks (since upgrade??).

Yep your bumper came out much nicer. I just think the biggest problem with mine was that it has been shredded a bit.

I fixed the link to the photo. I willl see when there is a new patch for the software as there are a few minor bugs with the latest software revision. Dunno when it will be available.

expat
01-13-2007, 05:26 PM
Crappy photo but you might get an impression of the lift


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/020_20.jpg

Tucson T4R
01-13-2007, 08:08 PM
Mark,

I don't know if you have noticed this but.....did you know your 4Runner is White???? :D

expat
01-13-2007, 10:59 PM
Mark,

I don't know if you have noticed this but.....did you know your 4Runner is White???? :D

Damn brake lights! :P They'd look better white! :rolleyes:

Mikestang
01-14-2007, 12:49 PM
Maybe a set of white walls, too?

expat
01-14-2007, 01:02 PM
Gap between chassis and body. I will buy some aftermarket body liner to fill the gap.

You can see right thru from one side to the other now when you squat down.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/018_18.jpg

expat
01-14-2007, 01:09 PM
And I've gained a little more gap bewteen the front fender and the bullbar which I needed

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/017_17.jpg

expat
01-14-2007, 01:09 PM
Damn links!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/017_17.jpg

bulldog
01-14-2007, 09:06 PM
Good thing it is a lot easier to work on the rear shocks now :D

AlexJet
01-15-2007, 05:31 AM
Mark, Andries,
Is it possible to drop just plastic cover for the fan instead of whole radiator assembly?
I've been reading that with 1.5" some people HAD to cut the rear bumper to lift it. You didn't cut the bumper based on the write-up and images I saw, am I right?

chiefiji
01-15-2007, 12:08 PM
Good thing it is a lot easier to work on the rear shocks now :D

is the gap between the body and the chassis enough to tuck the resevoir of the bilstien 7100? i've seen this done on a taco, and i remember lance has that setup too.

bulldog
01-15-2007, 05:10 PM
Mark, Andries,
Is it possible to drop just plastic cover for the fan instead of whole radiator assembly?
I've been reading that with 1.5" some people HAD to cut the rear bumper to lift it. You didn't cut the bumper based on the write-up and images I saw, am I right?

Not sure on the radiator, but I woudl just relocate the whole thing. This way it lines up with the fan correctly. ALso you reservior bottle is on both the shroud and the radiator, so reloacting just the shroud will be a challenge. My vote is just move the whole radiator.

Neither of us cut the rear bumper, but our bumpers has seen soem action. SO not everything might be in stock shape :D

bulldog
01-15-2007, 05:12 PM
is the gap between the body and the chassis enough to tuck the resevoir of the bilstien 7100? i've seen this done on a taco, and i remember lance has that setup too.

I'm sure with enough motivation you will be able to do it. Just make sure to find a properspot for the shocks. I would not mount them between the body and frame. The body might crush the reservoirs. However the body has lips above the frame, which could be manipulated out of the way to fit he reservior through and then mount it somewhere on the isde of the rail.

However I have not looked at it closely enough yet.

eli23
01-16-2007, 12:42 PM
can anyone give me an idea of how much the on road driving characteristics change when you add the 1.25" body lift. i already have the OME lift and i am worried that the body lift might make the truck feel a little top heavy when driving on the pavement.

bulldog
01-16-2007, 02:49 PM
can anyone give me an idea of how much the on road driving characteristics change when you add the 1.25" body lift. i already have the OME lift and i am worried that the body lift might make the truck feel a little top heavy when driving on the pavement.

I noticed the 4Runner feeling more top heavy with the body lift. On mine it made somewhat of a noticable difference, but some of it can be attributed to my rear suspension and setup changes - see below.

I removed my rear cargo system with fridge, recovery gear, etc. SO the rear is lighter (300lbs+)than it normally is and stands 1/2" or so up more than the norm due to the tall coils.

expat
01-16-2007, 08:36 PM
Noted very little change except with strong cross-wind, but you get that with a SUV.

Honestly, 1.5" would be very hard to tell on truck. Changing height on a car is where you really notice the difference. Every time I adjusted my 911 height a 1/4 inch I could notice difference in straight line firmness, corner handling and braking. Not so much on the 4Runner especially when adding bullbar, suspension, sliders etc....

expat
02-19-2007, 11:03 AM
Think we should simply indicate here that we have identified a problem with moving the Shrockworks bumper up one hole (now using three on each side instead of four) to accomodate the body lift. Seems like under winching the bumper is not remaining in place too well. Bulldog will be investigating this further and I am sure will update in the next few months once his rig has come back from a major renovation project.

bulldog
02-19-2007, 02:03 PM
Think we should simply indicate here that we have identified a problem with moving the Shrockworks bumper up one hole (now using three on each side instead of four) to accomodate the body lift. Seems like under winching the bumper is not remaining in place too well. Bulldog will be investigating this further and I am sure will update in the next few months once his rig has come back from a major renovation project.

I spoke with Nick at SW, and he will be looking into it. He has a couple of ideas how to address this, but will need some time to do homework.

I think we should probably start a thread in the offroad tech section to cover this topic. It would be good to give them some time to look into it and I will also see what Luke (4x4labs) comes up with for a solution.

my034runner
02-19-2007, 08:42 PM
I spoke with Nick at SW, and he will be looking into it. He has a couple of ideas how to address this, but will need some time to do homework.

I think we should probably start a thread in the off-road tech section to cover this topic. It would be good to give them some time to look into it and I will also see what Luke (4x4labs) comes up with for a solution.



Has anyone had any problems winching without the BL?
The only time I've used it, was when we were rolling it in.
I'm thinking of finally putting my 1.5" BL on, but I will hold off for now, until SW has a solution..

bulldog
02-19-2007, 09:31 PM
Has anyone had any problems winching without the BL?
The only time I've used it, was when we were rolling it in.
I'm thinking of finally putting my 1.5" BL on, but I will hold off for now, until SW has a solution..

I think ksneubec has used his winch as well (without BL) and reported no issues. However I was winching pretty damn hard to drag trucks through the snow (actually ICE banks).

EIther way I would say hold out from winching till SW gets back. In any case we should start a seperate thread on that topic, as quite few has had bumper movement even without winching, so a securign solution would be great for all.

Canyon.4R
03-08-2007, 11:00 AM
I don't know if I haven't looked in all the right places.. but the first post in this thread, bulldog mentions going for a 305/70/17 tire with the normal DR coilover front (~3"), custom deaver rear (~2.5), 1.5" body lift, Shrockworks bumper. Does anyone know if this is possible yet? Bigger? Are you getting bigger tires with your nip/tuck session at 4x4labs bulldog??

I guess my basic question is what is the largest tire you fit get on a 4th gen with the maximum suspension (3") and body (1.5") lifts currently available (without going to long travel kits or custom stuff). Unless something amazing comes along, any higher of lift gets into a lot more fabrication issues (custom suspension work, custom fenders, etc..).

Jared has 33x12.50R17 TrXus M/T's on 17x8, 0 offset, 4.5 backspaced rims, with 3" suspension and no body lift, IIRC. This works out to be a 315/65/17 roughly (a little smaller but wider than the 305/70/17). He did require a fair amount of trimming.

Maybe I just answered my own question. Or maybe we can go even bigger with the body lift!?!?

bulldog
03-08-2007, 11:15 AM
I don't know if I haven't looked in all the right places.. but the first post in this thread, bulldog mentions going for a 305/70/17 tire with the normal DR coilover front (~3"), custom deaver rear (~2.5), 1.5" body lift, Shrockworks bumper. Does anyone know if this is possible yet? Bigger? Are you getting bigger tires with your nip/tuck session at 4x4labs bulldog??

I guess my basic question is what is the largest tire you fit get on a 4th gen with the maximum suspension (3") and body (1.5") lifts currently available (without going to long travel kits or custom stuff). Unless something amazing comes along, any higher of lift gets into a lot more fabrication issues (custom suspension work, custom fenders, etc..).

Jared has 33x12.50R17 TrXus M/T's on 17x8, 0 offset, 4.5 backspaced rims, with 3" suspension and no body lift, IIRC. This works out to be a 315/65/17 roughly (a little smaller but wider than the 305/70/17). He did require a fair amount of trimming.

Maybe I just answered my own question. Or maybe we can go even bigger with the body lift!?!?

AFter triming the body mount, and probably a little fender material I'm going to shoot for a 315/75/16 (35") tire. Failing that I wil revert back to 305/70/17 (34") tire. It is still quite a while before I will get to the point where I can test fit tires.

Keep in mind fitting a tire is one thing, but making it work is another. If you want to carry a spare you will need a rear tire carrier (hitch or new rear bumper mount). I would highly recommend looking into regearing as well, as this size tire will take a chunk out of the engine pep if you keep the stock gearing. ALso your brakes should be in top notch condition for highway/street driving with larger tires, so my pads and rotors are due for replacement.

I chose those sizes as MTRs are available in them. SO far I believe the MTRs will probably suite my future needs the best. AT least the 35" tire size is pretty common size, problem is folks with larger calipers will most likely have an issue with 16" wheels.

AlexJet
03-08-2007, 01:11 PM
Jared has 33x12.50R17 TrXus M/T's on 17x8, 0 offset, 4.5 backspaced rims, with 3" suspension and no body lift, IIRC. This works out to be a 315/65/17 roughly (a little smaller but wider than the 305/70/17).

:idisagree

305/70-R17 will be 34"

I'm running 285/70-R17 and those are 33"

bulldog
03-08-2007, 01:43 PM
:idisagree

305/70-R17 will be 34"

I'm running 285/70-R17 and those are 33"

Not sure what you disagree about, but the size listing from Canyon is correct.

33x12.5 is smaller in diameter than 305/70/17, but slightly wider.

AlexJet
03-08-2007, 01:59 PM
Not sure what you disagree about, but the size listing from Canyon is correct.

Sorry, my mistake. I was refering to:
"Jared has 33x12.50R17 TrXus M/T's. This works out to be a 315/65/17 roughly."
But those are 33". While I was writing, I thought about MT/Rs, where 315/70-R17 are 34.5" (35"). Sometimes it happens, you think of one, do another...

Canyon.4R
03-08-2007, 02:10 PM
So, bulldog took the words out of my mouth while I was writing this, and AlexJet had just had a typo error on his previous post.. but I worked hard on this, so here it is (I guess just for reference now.. I'm too slow :( ):

From the Interco Tire Corporation website (that makes Super Swampers and the TrXus M/T's):

TrXus M/T 33x12.50R17 - Section Width 12.3", Overall Diameter 33.2"

...With a little math...

Section Width: 12.3" = 312.42mm
Section Height: Overall Diameter (33.2") - Rim Diameter (17") = 16.2" / 2 = 8.1" 8.1" = 205.74mm
Aspect Ratio: 205.74mm / 312.42mm x 100% = 65.8537%

Therefore this TrXus M/T 33x12.50R17 roughly equals 315/65R17 metric (which probably doesn't exist in reality, but maybe.. I don't know).

And yes, a 305/70R17 with the same math skills is about a 34" tire, but skinnier (Overall Diameter 33.8", Section Width 12").

From TireRack.com:

Goodyear MT/R 285/70R17 - Width 11.5", Overall Diameter 32.9"
---YES, approx. 33"



I'm excited to see what you can pull off bulldog!!

Canyon.4R
03-08-2007, 02:12 PM
BTW, just in case someone out there is wondering.. I'll post a link for probably the bjillionth time of this site that will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about tire sizes, gear ratios, etc..

http://www.4lo.com/ ..go to calculators on the left side.

AlexJet
03-08-2007, 02:13 PM
I'm too tired today. It's 4:15pm already and I started at 7am. Sorry guys.

Canyon.4R
03-08-2007, 02:22 PM
No worries.. :)

Canyon.4R
03-08-2007, 02:25 PM
Specifically responding to your post, bulldog. Absolutely, regearing is in order for anything above a 33" tire (with 33's it's a toss up, depending on how you drive, how much money you want to spend, etc.. but probably would still be a good idea). Also, YES!! NO ONE should forget their brakes!!

I have one question of you, or anyone really. If this isn't the correct place for this feel free to just tell me. What exactly does it mean and/or entail to "trim and box the body mount?" I guess I have an idea, but not sure..

AlexJet
03-08-2007, 02:44 PM
I have one question of you, or anyone really. If this isn't the correct place for this feel free to just tell me. What exactly does it mean and/or entail to "trim and box the body mount?" I guess I have an idea, but not sure..

FJ guys done it many times.
Basically you trim (cut) a corner of the"box" on the body mount behind your front wheels. I have images in my computer. Let me see...

AlexJet
03-08-2007, 02:46 PM
I found it. I hope this will help you.

Before:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l183/Aviator_1/Body%20Mount%20Trim/d1975fda.jpg

Trimming:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l183/Aviator_1/Body%20Mount%20Trim/cfc715ef.jpg

After:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l183/Aviator_1/Body%20Mount%20Trim/6cf23c02.jpg

Canyon.4R
03-08-2007, 03:01 PM
Is this only on the front? And only 2 mounts (one on each side behind the wheel)?

bulldog
03-08-2007, 05:17 PM
Is this only on the front? And only 2 mounts (one on each side behind the wheel)?

Yes it is only for the front 2 body mounts. Different ways to trim it. I will post pix when mine is done.

However guys we are miles off topic now. At some point we can start a complete discussion on how to fit 34 or 35" tires.

Canyon.4R
03-13-2007, 01:59 PM
Sorry.. I'll be looking for that thread when you get to fitting those.

Canyon.4R
04-06-2007, 08:45 PM
So.. I have more questions for the body lift thread people..

Expat, did you ever find/figure out a filler piece for the gap that the body lift creates between the frame and body? Or are you not worrying about it?

Also, for people with the SW bumper.. does the body lift mess up anything associated with the fitment of the SW aluminum skid? It bolts to the bottom on the SW bumper and then to the bottom of the radiator, correct? And since the radiator is dropped with a bracket and the SW bumper is moved up a set of mounting holes...

Sorry if that's a stupid question. It just popped into my head! Tell me I'm dumb if need be.

expat
04-06-2007, 08:57 PM
Here's one possible answer. http://www.liftlips.com/

I know there is another product which you cut yourself using the outline from your stock rubber flaps. That's the one I want to use. I am currently looking for the link for those and will post here when I find it.

I want to order them myself asap.

Cheers
Mark

Here's more http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/WaterProofing.shtml#WheelWellLiners click the link for Wheel Well Liners.

A much cheaper alternative with write-up http://community.webshots.com/album/222129511wxtKaT

expat
04-06-2007, 09:00 PM
Order the s/s SW skid suitable for a 1.5 lift. This is what I ordered. I think Andries did not and is having something else fab'd up.

Mine fits perfectly in the setup of (from the bottom up) SW s/s skid, HDPE sheet, bolting into radiator crossmember. Note it does not actually bolt into the radiator but a crossmember just below the radiator.

bulldog
04-07-2007, 12:08 AM
Here's one possible answer. http://www.liftlips.com/

I know there is another product which you cut yourself using the outline from your stock rubber flaps. That's the one I want to use. I am currently looking for the link for those and will post here when I find it.

I want to order them myself asap.

Cheers
Mark

Here's more http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/WaterProofing.shtml#WheelWellLiners click the link for Wheel Well Liners.

A much cheaper alternative with write-up http://community.webshots.com/album/222129511wxtKaT

Interesting. It is something I want to look at for the front. DOnt care too much about the rear. Only thing is the lift lips are for 3rd Gens by the look of it, not sure how they can list 3rd and 4th gen model years with the same part #.

SidVicious
04-07-2007, 12:24 AM
Interesting. It is something I want to look at for the front. DOnt care too much about the rear. Only thing is the lift lips are for 3rd Gens by the look of it, not sure how they can list 3rd and 4th gen model years with the same part #.


I have used lift lips before (on my '92 Ranger w/ 3" BL) and these things are pretty much adaptable to various applications. It comes with plugs for attachment of the lips. They work by fitting into a hole in the rubber lip and a hole you drill in your wheel well (i.e. every install is a custom fit.)

So it is very possible that the part # can be the same for 3rd and 4th gen runners.

;)

bulldog
04-07-2007, 12:36 AM
Good to know, thx.

expat
04-07-2007, 03:12 AM
I'm going to go the cheap route and try the hardware stores for some rubber and make a template using my old ones as a guide. I'll post my discoveries over the weekend.

Actually, no I won't. Daughter has gone away with the camera for the week. Oh well, can post in words.

expat
04-07-2007, 06:04 PM
Andries - check the bracket that holds your ABS wire and the breather to the fender well. My ABS wire was pulled (stretched) very tight. Would have been from the body lift. I just bent the bracket down a little to take the strain off the wire.

I went to Home Depot and OSH today and could not find any rubber sheet. Only thing close was pool lining which came in a huge roll for $99.

I ended up buying some rolls of Solid Grip Liner 18" x 4' roll which were $6.00 each. Its not as tough as rubber but it should work and at least I will have a template from this stuff if I can source something more sturdy.

Tucson T4R
04-07-2007, 06:36 PM
When I made an in ground fountain the fountain store had thick rubber sheeting for the in ground liner. Try a local fountain store to see if they have the rubber sheeting. They sold it in small sizes if you wanted.

bulldog
04-07-2007, 06:49 PM
Andries - check the bracket that holds your ABS wire and the breather to the fender well. My ABS wire was pulled (stretched) very tight. Would have been from the body lift. I just bent the bracket down a little to take the strain off the wire.

I went to Home Depot and OSH today and could not find any rubber sheet. Only thing close was pool lining which came in a huge roll for $99.

I ended up buying some rolls of Solid Grip Liner 18" x 4' roll which were $6.00 each. Its not as tough as rubber but it should work and at least I will have a template from this stuff if I can source something more sturdy.

OK will check it when I get teh 4Runner. Thx. Which breather are you referring too?

Dealmaker
04-07-2007, 06:54 PM
[offtopic]...funny...I was underneath a couple nights ago and found that ABS wire completely out of the bracket just inside the driver-side fron tire. Was very hard to get back in, I ended up prying the the bracket open a bit more, tucked the wire in, then clamped lightly with pliers.

Andries - check the bracket that holds your ABS wire and the breather to the fender well. My ABS wire was pulled (stretched) very tight. Would have been from the body lift. I just bent the bracket down a little to take the strain off the wire...

expat
04-16-2007, 11:05 PM
So I made some liners out of plastic as mentioned above. Here are the pictures. When I get around to sourcing some heavy material I mght redo it but it seems to be working so far. I have a template if anyone wants to use it in the future.

Before

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/liners1.jpg


After

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/liners2.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/liners3.jpg

The template that can be rolled up and posted

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Liner4.jpg

Cruiserhead
04-17-2007, 01:07 AM
Mark,
Curious where you are at now with measurements.
For example from ground to fender edge, ground to slider or some other measurements. Just curious how high you are riding now
Looks really good!

Crappy photo but you might get an impression of the lift


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/020_20.jpg

Crozhawk
05-11-2007, 06:07 AM
I installed a 1.25" lift yesterday, thanks for the great write up Andries, it was much easier to follow than the instructions that came with it. I just wanted to add a couple comments for guys that don't have an aftermarket bumper. The 1.25" kit allowed the front bumper to mate back up perfectly with no gaps, even the front inside liners stretched to fit. I found it easier to use the OEM front (#1) mounts as they were long enought to accomodate the front spacers. I had to use a hi-lift in the rear wheel wells to lift because my floorjack wasn't high enough ...worked great, good idea to wrap it with towels as it gets close to the body and could scratch if you're not careful. I was hesitant about doing it alone but it was very straight forward and actually a lot easier than I expected. Also, this may be because mine is an 06' but I found it unnecessary to drill out the holes. a couple soft blows with a hammer and the new hardware went in nice and snug. :D

r0cky
06-26-2007, 12:52 PM
Oh, damn, I was hoping the little card I filled out would matter! But no worries, I'll wait for the actual survey to come in the mail and then I'll be sure to give them an earful.

Here are the pictures, and if you want to see the big versions, go here:
http://tinyurl.com/2926l2

http://box.ixolo.com/steering/1.jpg

http://box.ixolo.com/steering/2.jpg

http://box.ixolo.com/steering/3.jpg

http://box.ixolo.com/steering/4.jpg

http://box.ixolo.com/steering/5.jpg

http://box.ixolo.com/steering/6.jpg


I hope these help us figure out what happened! It's definitely nice to have the truck back all in one piece, but like I mentioned earlier, I'm finding myself a little bit afraid of it at the moment (though the 886s are much better than the 885s for this setup).

:wavey:

Photog
06-26-2007, 01:28 PM
From the pictures, it looks like there is a grove around the shaft, where it broke. Notice the radius on both parts, it is not a sharp edge.

The end-view, with the part in your hand, shows the starting point of the fracture, at the 10 o'clock position.

This looks like a bending fatigue failure. The shaft was being slightly bent, and as the steering wheel turned, the bend stayed in the same position; but the shaft would be turning. If it were a flexable shaft, it wouldn't break; but is is not flexable, and the repeated bending, back and forth, finally caused a fatigue crack to start, and the shaft failed.

Since the rack-and-pinion steering box is attached to the frame, and the steering wheel is attached to the body, when the body is lifted, the two parts are no longer in alignment. The shaft between the two parts will have to bend, to make the connection.

If the steering column mount can be shimmed to correct the misalignment, and the rack could also be aligned toward the steering column, the stess load on the steering shaft could be eliminated. Maybe only have to adjust one end, since there is a type of U-Joint in the shaft.

Can this spot in the shaft be seen, when looking up under the steering column? We should all check to see if there is a groove in the shaft where this fracture is given a starting point.

r0cky
06-26-2007, 01:30 PM
I *think* this spot can be seen when looking up under the steering column. I never looked at it until it broke, and haven't had a chance today because it's pouring rain .... but damn, that's scary ... so it *is* the actual body lift ITSELF and not just the installation.

Hmmmm ....

Photog
06-26-2007, 01:31 PM
I could be wrong; but the U-Joint may be part of the adjustable steering wheel. This would mean the column and rack need to be in proper alignment.

Does anyone have the factory diagram of theis assembly from column to rack?

Photog
06-26-2007, 01:35 PM
If the body lift causes the ends of the shaft to be held in a misaligned condition, it could certainly cause this problem. I'm sure this is what Roger Brown is postulating, about the body lift causing the problem.

But; if the shaft is in a relaxed condition, after the body lift, then something else caused the problem.

What exactly, is loosened and retightened (in the steering), when doing a body lift? Is it shown in your photos?
If the adjustment mearly allows the shaft to extend to a longer length, it will not correct the misalignment, and will not solve the problem.

bulldog
06-26-2007, 02:00 PM
Hmm will need to check it out sometime. Thx for posting the pics.

AT least it seems like your 4Runner is sorted out now :D

r0cky
06-26-2007, 03:56 PM
I guess I'm somewhat concerned that people seem kind of nonchalant about this. I sent the pics to Roger as well and his reply was again that if you install it correctly there should be no issue, and pointed me to this newly added step to the instructions:

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/Docs/BodyLift_HowTo.shtml#4thGenSteering

His reply was:

If the bottom of the shaft is extended properly, there should be no stress on the upper part of the shaft. The joint on the upper part of the shaft should handle the angle, as long as the lower part of the shaft is not pulling on it all the time due to not being extended. I added some additional information on doing this on the installation notes page:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/Docs/BodyLift_HowTo.shtml#4thGenSteering
The only tricky part on the 4th gen setup is there is no simple visible way to check for any residual stress since there is no rubber rag joint (that stretches under tension) like on the earlier trucks/4Runners.

Guys, I think this is an important issue. I certainly wasn't aware of stress being on the steering shaft until it happened, and I don't think anyone else will be either because except for one day my steering never felt "strange" and was never "binding".

If someone is on a busy street or a highway and this happens, it is not going to be good.

Photog
06-26-2007, 04:16 PM
I will look in my Toyota repair manual, to see how this whole assembly goes together. If it is what I am thinking, the body lift will put the steering shaft into an "S" shape. Extending the splined connections will not correct this problem. If that is the case, IT SHOULD NOT BE OK WITH ANYBODY.!:shout:

r0cky
06-26-2007, 04:24 PM
I have a repair manual as well and if you want, I can probably take a picture of the steering diagram after dinner and post it here. Maybe that'll help all of us understand the assembly better, too.

Brian, you don't have a body lift, do you?

Lance is going to check out the pictures I sent, and I guess Roger already did but is pretty sure it's due to incorrect installation (although I remember loosening the steering and everything because I bugged my friend about it) ... it wouldn't be as scary if the juncture showed cracks that we could keep an eye out for, but the fact that it doesn't have any cracks or anything that would hint at the major fatigue going on there is worrisome.

expat
06-26-2007, 04:32 PM
Glad you got it back.

When wife gets home I'll look carefully at mine. I know for certain Andries and I loosened ours off before doing the BL.

BUT...I still doubt this is the problem. That's not a thin piece of steel. It would take some pretty large force to shear like that.

I wish we had a metalurgist who could make comment.

Photog
06-26-2007, 04:33 PM
I don't have a body lift on my 4th Gen. That is why I want to see how the steering assembly is held in the vehicle, before I commit to the cause of the problem. I have been thinking about a body lift on my 4R, and this might be the deal breaker. We will see.

I have done body lifts on other vehicles, and understand the issues involved. Many other vehicles have a couple extra joints in the steering shaft, to reduce felt vibration, and allow for misalignments.

Photog
06-26-2007, 04:51 PM
Glad you got it back.

When wife gets home I'll look carefully at mine. I know for certain Andries and I loosened ours off before doing the BL.

BUT...I still doubt this is the problem. That's not a thin piece of steel. It would take some pretty large force to shear like that.

I wish we had a metalurgist who could make comment.

From the pics, you can see that it was not "sheared". It has the tell tale chevron shape in the fracture. This broke by bending forces. Not torsion, and not shear.

Without knowing the alloy and heat treat process used on this part, there is no way to tell what the material properties are.

Fatigue is a funny thing. The material can be very strong; but if it is loaded and unloaded, in a cyclic manner, it will break. The load does not have to be that high. Not even high enough to show visible bending. With steel alloys, rotating shafts can be made strong enough to not fatigue fracture (aluminum can not).

If this steering shaft is being held in an "S" shape, the action of steering will cause the cyclic type of forces that cause fatigue fractures. If the steering shaft was not designed with this type of loading in mind, it will fail. In severe cases, the material will neck down, just before failure. This can cause the small radius you see at the edge of the break, in the pics.

I couldn't spell ENGINEER when I first went to school; but I have been one now, for 20 years.

expat
06-26-2007, 04:54 PM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Steeringshaft004.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Steeringshaft003.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Steeringshaft002.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Steeringshaft001.jpg

Photog
06-26-2007, 05:13 PM
It broke in the "no. 2 Main Shaft Sub-assy"

The alignment of this assembly is locked in by the "Column Tube". There are three bolts that hold this tube in place. Alignment could be changed, by shimming the space between the "Tilt Steering Support Sub-assy" and the column tube, at the location of bolt 15(150,11) shown in the first diagram.

There appears to be a U-joint, shown in the 3rd diagram, "Steering Intermediate Shaft Sub-assy No.2". This is good; but it will not solve the problem of a shaft that was aligned from end to end, and now the ends are parallel; but not aligned.

Now all we have to do is shim the front of the coulmn mount (described earlier) until the steering shaft is pointing directly at the u-joint. Or, turn the steering rack up, until the u-joint lines up with the steering shaft. Or, a little of both.

That may not be easy to do. Then again, it might only take 30 minutes.??

Without the u-joint, this would be impossible, without some fabrication.

Photog
06-26-2007, 05:22 PM
So the cause of the problem could easily be the body lift. Here is how.

The coulmn tube is holds the upper shaft in tight alignment, and is attached to the body. The rack & pinion hold the other end of the shaft in tight alignment. The column is attached to the body, and the rack & pinion is attached to the frame. If designed and assembled properly, these parts will all line up (alignment). No stress.

Now, lift the body 1.5" straight up off the frame. The ends of the steering shaft are no longer aligned. No matter how loose the slip-joint is. This only controls length, not angle of the shaft.

The shaft connecting the two ends woul be forced into an "S" shape. In ouor case, there is 1 u-joint, near the rack; so the shaft is only bent into a mild "U" shape. This isn't any better than "S". It is still bent.

And the bearing, where the steering shaft comes into the rack, is now being side-loaded.

'Nough said

r0cky
06-26-2007, 07:17 PM
Okay, oops, I missed this page when I replied just now about getting the repair manual from the garage.

Thanks for those pics, Mark. And I'm no engineer (theology grad student here) but Brian, what you're saying makes all the sense in the world.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. I realize removing the body lift entirely is an option, but it's not my first choice because a) it should be able to be run without being dangerous; and b) that wouldn't help the situation for anyone else who encounters this problem.

r0cky
06-26-2007, 07:35 PM
I think this arrow points to where it broke along the no. 2 main shaft sub-assy:

http://box.ixolo.com/steering/diagram.jpg

expat
06-26-2007, 07:54 PM
I've written an email to Roger Brown asking if he could come on here and gives his opinion. He's a good guy so hopefully he can clarify from his perspective.

expat
06-26-2007, 08:09 PM
Moderators - do you think it would be worth splitting this thread off (at around page 4 where Tracy mentions the steering shaft being broken) and placing information in the BL thread where it might be more appropriate? Just a suggestion.

r0cky
06-26-2007, 08:14 PM
It's fine if you want to split the thread, but I've linked to it on toyota-4runner.org about the steering shaft / BL issue (in threads I started back when this first happened) .....

As far as Roger, I was going to send him a link here as well but Mark beat me to it. I posted his previous reply about the breakage being due to the installation process and not the BL itself. Maybe he'll be able to shed more light on it as far as what Brian has pointed out as well.

:)

bulldog
06-26-2007, 09:42 PM
Lets see what ROger has to say. I think Roger is onto a point of loosening the slipjoint after you drove it a while and then retightening it. This will avoid residual stress on the whol shaft assembly.

I seriously doubt the shaft gets bend in any shape due to the bodylift, since the shaft assembly has 2 u joints, one at the steerign rack and one below the No.2 Main shaft.

This is the exact same design the rear driveshaft has. The output of the transfer case is at a fixed angle, so is the the input of the rear axle. The 2 u joints and slipjoint prevent the shaft from getting overstressed. Keep in mind that the rear axle has a lot of up and down movement to deal with.

Same goes for the steerign shaft, the 2 joints in the assembly helps it manage a wide range of angle and motion. The problem is to prevent push pull stress in it assembly, which can cause undue stress on the shaft and even cause bending forces on the #2 main shaft.

I suggets to check out the slip joint from tiime to time, probably a good idea to loosen and tighten it to relieve any stress that may exist.

I woudn't get all stressed ot over it, till more times goes into investigating this. Inspection and maintenance would be a good thing though.

Lets see what Roger Brown has to say on this topic, especially since bodylifts has been around for ages and most have a lot more thna we do.

r0cky
06-26-2007, 09:47 PM
This is what Roger said earlier today:

If the bottom of the shaft is extended properly, there should be no stress on the upper part of the shaft. The joint on the upper part of the shaft should handle the angle, as long as the lower part of the shaft is not pulling on it all the time due to not being extended. I added some additional information on doing this on the installation notes page:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/Docs/BodyLift_HowTo.shtml#4thGenSteering
The only tricky part on the 4th gen setup is there is no simple visible way to check for any residual stress since there is no rubber rag joint (that stretches under tension) like on the earlier trucks/4Runners.

bulldog
06-26-2007, 09:52 PM
Guess time to check the joint out for those with body lifts. SOunds very reasonable that this is the cause fo the bending stress Brian is referrign too. Release the in/out stress adn the bending forces are solved as well.

Hopefully other folks will see this and check out there setups, so they can avoid the same problem.

ALways better to learn form someone else mistakes :D Thx :jester: ;)

expat
06-26-2007, 11:12 PM
I recieved a fairly similar reply from Roger. He didn't indicate he was going to post here so I asked if I could copy his reply to me, here.

expat
06-26-2007, 11:18 PM
Release the in/out stress adn the bending forces are solved as well.

Not trying to speak for Brian but I think what he was suggesting is that the bending force would not go away simply by releasing the in/out stress. The way I interpreted Brian's comments was that he believes the stress is at the location where the shaft comes out of the column tube and that is not overcome by releasing pressure at the sliding yoke.

I have no idea because I am not an ENGINEER.

r0cky
06-26-2007, 11:21 PM
ALways better to learn form someone else mistakes :D Thx :jester: ;)

But that's what I'm saying -- re-reading the instructions now, we did that part correctly.

I'm not blaming anyone or any product, but we did that part correctly and still it broke and I'm the second person in the last few months who had that happen with the same setup ... so I don't want to just dismiss the issue, I want to go over the possibilities and make sure there isn't anything else we can do or make or whatever to prevent it from happening in the future.

r0cky
06-26-2007, 11:25 PM
Not trying to speak for Brian but I think what he was suggesting is that the bending force would not go away simply by releasing the in/out stress. The way I interpreted Brian's comments was that he believes the stress is at the location where the shaft comes out of the column tube and that is not overcome by releasing pressure at the sliding yoke.

I have no idea because I am not an ENGINEER.

Speaking from just looking at the broken piece, it doesn't look like it was *pulled apart* ... it has marks in the metal where it broke that make it look like something else. Brian explained it well and I think you're saying the same thing.

Maybe it's a combination of stresses, I don't know.

bulldog
06-26-2007, 11:56 PM
Not trying to speak for Brian but I think what he was suggesting is that the bending force would not go away simply by releasing the in/out stress. The way I interpreted Brian's comments was that he believes the stress is at the location where the shaft comes out of the column tube and that is not overcome by releasing pressure at the sliding yoke.

I have no idea because I am not an ENGINEER.

I'm suggesting that the bend forces Brian suggest caused the failure are directly related to the in/out forces on the shaft. Teh shaft has 2 u joints with a slip between them, thus any in/out force on the area between the u joints will cause a bending force on the shafts out side the u joints. Solve the in/out problem and you solve the bending problem.

Same principle as the slipjoint on the rear driveshaft between the u joints, if you have an issue with the slipjoint not being able to compress it can crack the transfer case housing.

I think Roger is spot on with finding any residual stress first in the shaft. Keep in mind that the movement is very limited on the steering shaft compared to the driveshaft.

I will definitely look at the instruction Roger supplied and loosen the clamp adn check the spline area. This should relieve any stresses that might be there.

bulldog
06-27-2007, 12:02 AM
But that's what I'm saying -- re-reading the instructions now, we did that part correctly.

I'm not blaming anyone or any product, but we did that part correctly and still it broke and I'm the second person in the last few months who had that happen with the same setup ... so I don't want to just dismiss the issue, I want to go over the possibilities and make sure there isn't anything else we can do or make or whatever to prevent it from happening in the future.

Agreed, but I want to make sure we understand the cause properly before coming to any conclusions.

I looked at the diagrams carefully tonight, and the only thing I can see that will cause a bending force on the shaft (were yours broke) is if there is a push/pull on the section where the slipjoint is. Teh u joints on both ends will take care of any up down movement between body and frame, but they need some stresss relieve between. When Mark and I did the bodylifts the slipjoint moved out a good 1/2" (IIRC).

DId you ever recheck the slipjoint after the initial installation? I believe that is what Roger suggest folks do.

expat
06-27-2007, 12:02 AM
Ok I heard back from Roger and he said he will try to get over here and post up his thoughts.

He did suggest that it might be possible to insert a retrofit part apparently similar to "what Toyota has used on all earlier 4Runners and pickups (since the early '80s) to handle body/frame flexing and steering shaft extension and alignment issues".

He's looking into it.

Cheers
Mark

expat
06-27-2007, 12:04 AM
Agreed, but I want to make sure we understand the cause properly before coming to any conclusions.

Agreed. Excellent point.

r0cky
06-27-2007, 12:06 AM
Agreed, but I want to make sure we understand the cause properly before coming to any conclusions.

I looked at the diagrams carefully tonight, and the only thing I can see that will cause a bending force on the shaft (were yours broke) is if there is a push/pull on the section where the slipjoint is. Teh u joints on both ends will take care of any up down movement between body and frame, but they need some stresss relieve between. When Mark and I did the bodylifts the slipjoint moved out a good 1/2" (IIRC).

DId you ever recheck the slipjoint after the initial installation? I believe that is what Roger suggest folks do.

I'm pretty sure we did check it again, but I am not 100% sure. Is this something that can be done without putting the truck on stands? I'd like to check out how they installed the new one, but I don't have the room to take it apart here.

(Yeah, I remember, like you, that the slipjoint moved out noticeably after the BL.)

r0cky
06-27-2007, 12:08 AM
Agreed. Excellent point.

Definitely hadn't come to a conclusion, I was just hoping we could investigate and be open to the possibility of making some kind of part to help with this.

:camping:

expat
06-27-2007, 12:11 AM
When Mark and I did the bodylifts the slipjoint moved out a good 1/2"

Actually closer to an inch - I checked tonight.

I have loosened off the slip yoke and pushed the shaft up about 1/16" but I can't detect any binding or stiffness.

bulldog
06-27-2007, 12:14 AM
I'm pretty sure we did check it again, but I am not 100% sure. Is this something that can be done without putting the truck on stands? I'd like to check out how they installed the new one, but I don't have the room to take it apart here.

(Yeah, I remember, like you, that the slipjoint moved out noticeably after the BL.)

Yep, you can just lean over the fender and get to the slipjoint. 2 bolts to loosen, check stuff and then retighten then.

I believe Roger's write up refers to the fact the body and frame can settle a little in relation to each other after the install. This might create additional stress on the steerign shaft. By loosening the slipjoint soem time after the install will allow for relieve of this stress.

Honestly the best would be to have a proper slipjoint setup like on the driveshaft, which allows for plenty of movement with no issues.

Either way it would be greats for folks to post up their findings once they loosen and recheck the slipjoint down the line form the body lift install. Let us know if you notice any additional movement or anything else that can be noticed from this inspection.

r0cky
06-27-2007, 12:19 AM
Yep, you can just lean over the fender and get to the slipjoint. 2 bolts to loosen, check stuff and then retighten then.

I believe Roger's write up refers to the fact the body and frame can settle a little in relation to each other after the install. This might create additional stress on the steerign shaft. By loosening the slipjoint soem time after the install will allow for relieve of this stress.

Honestly the best would be to have a proper slipjoint setup like on the driveshaft, which allows for plenty of movement with no issues.

Either way it would be greats for folks to post up their findings once they loosen and recheck the slipjoint down the line form the body lift install. Let us know if you notice any additional movement or anything else that can be noticed from this inspection.

If it isn't raining tomorrow, I'll try to go out and do this. Hopefully there hasn't been too much damage done since the replacement, because I doubt the dealership loosened anything. So currently, mine is probably pre-BL as far as position goes ... so when I'll loosen the two bolts enough to slide the slipjoint out, and then I'll retighten.

Is there a way to gauge how far is too far to pull it? I worry about somehow loosening it too much or having some part fall out either during this or sometime while I'm driving. I wish I remembered in more detail how it felt the first time.

I've been meaning to re-check all the body mount bolts for tightness as well, so this will be a good opportunity to look at them too. I'll report back if I notice anything else.

bulldog
06-27-2007, 12:19 AM
Actually closer to an inch - I checked tonight.

I have loosened off the slip yoke and pushed the shaft up about 1/16" but I can't detect any binding or stiffness.

Thx, you beat me to my previous post. Good info to have. SO you moved the slipjoint on the shaft form the previous position?

r0cky
06-27-2007, 12:32 AM
Bulldog,

You guys only loosened the top bolt (as per your write-up)? Any reason to loosen both? We loosened both the first time - is that not necessary?

bulldog
06-27-2007, 12:44 AM
Bulldog,

You guys only loosened the top bolt (as per your write-up)? Any reason to loosen both? We loosened both the first time - is that not necessary?

IIRC the top side is the one with the most spline length on it, thus we loosened that to make sure that is where it slips out when lifting the body. This avoided the possibility of the shaft being pulled out on the bottom end.

Either way, once it is settled it will probably be better to loosen both. Also would be a good idea to TQ it down to the 26 lbft TQ spec.

r0cky
06-27-2007, 12:51 AM
IIRC the top side is the one with the most spline length on it, thus we loosened that to make sure that is where it slips out when lifting the body. This avoided the possibility of the shaft being pulled out on the bottom end.

Either way, once it is settled it will probably be better to loosen both. Also would be a good idea to TQ it down to the 26 lbft TQ spec.

Good advice on TQing it and I'll see what happens just loosening the top bolt. Certainly don't want anything falling out though. We'll see. I'm hoping tomorrow will be sunny, because I don't like the thought of it sitting there without being loosened. Eeks.

Looking forward to whatever tomorrow brings with all this. It'd be interesting to see pictures from several people with BLs to see what everyone's slipjoints look like currently. I appreciate all the info here and all the help - hopefully it'll encourage others to check this particular part out too.

:)

expat
06-27-2007, 02:03 AM
Good advice on TQing it and I'll see what happens just loosening the top bolt. Certainly don't want anything falling out though. We'll see. I'm hoping tomorrow will be sunny, because I don't like the thought of it sitting there without being loosened. Eeks.

Looking forward to whatever tomorrow brings with all this. It'd be interesting to see pictures from several people with BLs to see what everyone's slipjoints look like currently. I appreciate all the info here and all the help - hopefully it'll encourage others to check this particular part out too.

:)

I can shoot a photo tomorrow and post it. I was thinking that maybe if the body settles like Andries mentioned, maybe the shaft should actually move DOWN inside the slip joint not UP as I did this afternoon. I think I will open up the slip joint with a screw driver and see if I can get it to sit naturally where it wants. :confused: I did move it OUT of the joint but thinking about it, it's more likely to want to move IN right?

AlexJet
06-27-2007, 08:14 AM
Ok I heard back from Roger and he said he will try to get over here and post up his thoughts.

He did suggest that it might be possible to insert a retrofit part apparently similar to "what Toyota has used on all earlier 4Runners and pickups (since the early '80s) to handle body/frame flexing and steering shaft extension and alignment issues".

He's looking into it.

Cheers
Mark

This is very interesting. How this "retrofit" part looks like and where to get it?

AlexJet
06-27-2007, 08:27 AM
I think what Brian was talking about is this issue with "S" shaping the shaft:
(sorry for my drawing, but I only have MS Paint in this computer right now)

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l183/Aviator_1/Body%20Lift/BodyLift.jpg

Photog
06-27-2007, 10:40 AM
I am a few posts behind; but I did read through all the info posted last night.

Alex, your drawing is close to correct. The lower mount where it says "frame", should be on the lower section, below that joint (left). It is actually the rack & pinion.

Alex's drawing shows what would happen to the shaft, if there were no joints, between the two "hard" points on the steering shaft assembly.

There is a slip joint in the uppermost section of the steering shaft, to allow for the steering wheel to move in/out. Depending on where this is in the shaft assembly, the other splined joints may have no effect, other than to optimize the full stroke of the adjustable steering column.

If you loosened the splined joint under the hood, installed the body lift, allowed the joint to slide out, there should be no push/pull (tension) stress on the shaft. This does not solve the problem of the mis-aligned hard points, if there were only one u-joint.

Andries is correct, IF there were two u-joints between the hard points, there would be no bending stress; but there is only one. Sorry.

EDIT: Andries showed a diagram of a second u-joint, hidden behind a cover at the firewall. I finally foundd this joint in my repair manual also. Not all manuals are created equal. The second u-joint is a GOOD thing.

Photog
06-27-2007, 10:53 AM
EDIT: This procedure probably won't be of any benefit, as there are enough joints in the shaft, and the "Hole Cover" at the firewall, may not allow an adjustment like the one I describe below, for a one-joint shaft. You won't miss anything, if you skip it.

All is not lost. Simply shim the forward mount, of the three, holding the column to the dash. The goal is to change the angle of the shaft, far enough that the far end (at the rack), comes down by the amount of the body lift. A few degrees at the column will equal an inch at the rack.

The best way would be to disconnect the lower, splined joint at the rack. When you do this, you should notice that the shaft will relax and rise up, about as high as the body lift. Start shimming the forward column mount, until the splined joint easily slides back together. Since you already made some adjustments to the upper splined joint, you may have to loosen that joint, and push it back together, to get everything to slip back into place. You might have to do this to get it appart, to start.

I would loosen all three column bolts, and just finger tighten the rear pair, and leave the forward one very loose. You may need to replace the forward bolt with a longer bolt.

bulldog
06-27-2007, 11:01 AM
Lower U-joint by sterring rack
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Steeringshaft002.jpg

Upper U-joint between upper steering column and lower shaft, sits by the firewall
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Steeringshaft001.jpg

Joint for tilting function on steering wheel
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Steeringshaft003.jpg

SO there are 3 joints in the whole assembly, hence my conclusion (at this time) that there is stress between the 2 u joints that is not relieved, which will cause the bending action on the section that failed.

The problem looks ot me more like the area between the U-joints where you are supposed to relive the stress. I will only have access to my truck some time later to look into this in detail, as I need to see how the assembly allows for movement between body and frame. The issue I see is that if there is existing stress in a static position, it will be amplified while offroad, as the body moves on the frame. That is a big enough force to damage and shear the shaft, but only if there is no stress relieve.

Photog
06-27-2007, 11:20 AM
I looked at my manual again, and in all the diagrams, that extra u-joint is only shown in one. How did I miss that? Dang, all that typing and spreading of mis-information.

It looks like that u-joint is hidden behind the "steering column hole cover", where the shaft passes through the firewall.

I should probably stop here, as my credability just went all to hell (thanks to a substandard manual).

But; the fracture analysis of the shaft end, still shows a bending stress, which in the light of the second (hidden) joint, would have to be the result of the splined joints not being adjusted to a relaxed condition, after the body lift.

AlexJet
06-27-2007, 11:57 AM
Carefully examine the repair manual and reading everybody’s posts, I came up to this:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l183/Aviator_1/Body%20Lift/BodyLift-Steering.jpg

1. There is no mount to either body or frame on intermediate shaft. ???
Sliding Yoke is not mounted to anything. ????

2. If #1 is true, then we have 2 U-Joints between the FRAME and the BODY.
So there shouldn't be any "S" shaping of intermediate shaft. (Tracy didn't break this shaft. She has main shaft broken)

3. May be...may be she runs out of sliding yoke free play and this causing the problem. Otherwise I can't see mechanical problem if...if my schematics are correct.

4. Theoreticaly you can brake the main shaft with bending force ONLY in case of rising the body using body lift while the intermediate shaft didn't change it's angle (there is a mount to somewhat somewhere).

5. Roger used to make steering shaft extensions which were bolted between steering shaft connectors. Why he didn't offered this for 4th Gen.???

Photog
06-27-2007, 12:38 PM
Looking at the images from Andries manual (I don't trust mine anymore), there is some type of rubber boot on the lower end of the steering shaft. Does this cover a slip joint of some type?

If there is a slip joint in that part of the shaft, I wonder how far it can move?
Andries refered to this in post #144, if the lift and adjustments caused the slip joint to bottom out, this could cause the problem. It may be bottomed out all the time, or just when flexing off-road.

All of this, IF there is a slip joint in the shaft, between the two u-joints.

Toyota should have designed some type of slip joint here, to allow some motion, when the vehicle flexes. That is why there are two u-joints (one joint seemed odd; but you never know).

AlexJet
06-27-2007, 01:40 PM
My friend (he drives 3rd Gen.) gave me an idea.
He never heard of the steering issue on 3rd Gen. with body lifts and you can lift it 3". If someone can find the steering assembly for the 3rd Gen. and look what Toyota made in different in our 4th Gen. compare to 3rd Gen. By comparing both steering assembles and eliminating the similar parts we might come out to the part which may be causing the problem.

bulldog
06-27-2007, 02:31 PM
Carefully examine the repair manual and reading everybody’s posts, I came up to this:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l183/Aviator_1/Body%20Lift/BodyLift-Steering.jpg

1. There is no mount to either body or frame on intermediate shaft. ???
Sliding Yoke is not mounted to anything. ????

2. If #1 is true, then we have 2 U-Joints between the FRAME and the BODY.
So there shouldn't be any "S" shaping of intermediate shaft. (Tracy didn't break this shaft. She has main shaft broken)

3. May be...may be she runs out of sliding yoke free play and this causing the problem. Otherwise I can't see mechanical problem if...if my schematics are correct.

4. Theoreticaly you can brake the main shaft with bending force ONLY in case of rising the body using body lift while the intermediate shaft didn't change it's angle (there is a mount to somewhat somewhere).

5. Roger used to make steering shaft extensions which were bolted between steering shaft connectors. Why he didn't offered this for 4th Gen.???

The above diagram looks good, thx.

The point is the system works when stock, the issue comes in if enough slide has been alloted after installing the body lift. Probably the best thing to do is to disconnect the sliding yoke bolts per the diagram and pics posted some time after installing the body lift and let it settle on it's own accord before TQ back as per spec. There is probably some settling that happens sometime after installing a body lift and if that is not allowed to equalize it might create stress on the steering links.

Might be a good idea to check the body mount bolts after some miles too. BTW how did you guys TQ your bodymounts bolt Tracy?

Photog
06-27-2007, 04:15 PM
Tracy,
Back in post #99, where your pics are posted, the 3rd pitcure shows a smaller shaft coming from inside a larger shaft, and what appear to be splines.

Does that inner shaft slide in/out of the larger section?

It also looks like there is a clip holding something together. Does this all come apart?

Also, at the location of the break, does the edge look machined, like there was a grove there? The diagrams make it look like a grove is drawn there.

r0cky
06-27-2007, 04:35 PM
Okay. Still pouring today so no chance to actually work on the truck, but I did run out, open the hood, hop on top of the bumper, and look at the slipjoint .... what does this piece look like stock? I'm trying to figure out if the dealership actually adjusted it and loosened it themselves, because it looks sort of like Andries' picture here:

http://www.toyota120.com/assets/images/Steering_slip_joint.jpg

I would really like to see some pictures, if anyone has a chance, of what it looks like after things are loosened and in place with the body lift -- I don't remember how it looked before, and I'm trying to figure out whether the dealership adjusted this during the install of the new steering shaft or if it is currently in its un-adjusted, stock position.

I don't feel any binding during steering ...

but until I know for sure, I don't want to drive it.

Brian, yes, where it broke there was a groove, which is where the arrow is on this image:

http://box.ixolo.com/steering/diagram.jpg

But no, nothing about it slides in or out, and that "clip" looking piece that you asked about is not actually a clip and it doesn't seem to want to come apart.

expat
06-27-2007, 05:07 PM
Ok, only quicky from me. The engine bay is just too hot for me to work on right now and to be honest I'm fried from a full day of surfing - can hardly move my arms!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Steeringshaft007.jpg

In the picture you will notice the grime that is about 3/4" away from the plastic collar which sits on the yoke. Sorry the angle does not show this too well. (Try holding a tape measure in one hand and shooting with a camera in the other while trying to not burn your hand/arms on hot parts!) This gives you an indication of where we (Andries and I) had the shaft slide out when the body lift was installed initially.

As I mentioned in yesterdays post I actually pushed it a bit further out yesterday but in reflection thought it really should go the other way as the body settled on the frame (spacers) after the BL.

I have a full day at home tomorrow so in the morning I intend to undo the slip yoke and remove it completely and see if there is any alignment issue between the Intemediate Shaft Sub Asssmebly No 2 and the Intermediate Shaft.

Photog
06-27-2007, 05:08 PM
Here is an image of the stock setup, no body lift.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p53/bsp3122/SteerShaftwebsize.jpg

Looking under the dash, the grove in the shaft, seems to be part of a dust seal for a bearing. A machined grove is certainly a starting point for a fracture to begin, IF there were any bending stress on the shaft.

Photog
06-27-2007, 05:22 PM
If the steering shaft comes down at a 45 degree angle (relative the the direction of the body lift), then the overall shaft length, between the two u-jounts, would need to be extended just over 0.5" per 1.0" of lift.

I'm not sure what the angle is, though. It may not be 45 degrees.

Photog
06-27-2007, 05:34 PM
Tracey,
From the photo you posted, it doesn't look like there are any fresh tool marks on the bolts, or slip marks on the spline. I would say they didn't touch that part, to replace the broken shaft.

If that is true, then the previous condition may still exist.

Take a closer look when you get a chance, or get a closer photograph.

Mark,
There seems to be a splined clamp at both ends of the shaft, under the hood. If that is the part you are removing, see if you can determine if there is a slip joint in it. If there is, how far can it move (long/short dimensions).

We might be able to define exactly where to set the length, before clamping it back together.

bulldog
06-27-2007, 05:49 PM
Tracey,
From the photo you posted, it doesn't look like there are any fresh tool marks on the bolts, or slip marks on the spline. I would say they didn't touch that part, to replace the broken shaft.

If that is true, then the previous condition may still exist.

Take a closer look when you get a chance, or get a closer photograph.

Mark,
There seems to be a splined clamp at both ends of the shaft, under the hood. If that is the part you are removing, see if you can determine if there is a slip joint in it. If there is, how far can it move (long/short dimensions).

We might be able to define exactly where to set the length, before clamping it back together.


I believe that is my pic she just used for illustrative purposes. That pic was taken before the body lift was installed.

r0cky
06-27-2007, 06:44 PM
Tracey,
From the photo you posted, it doesn't look like there are any fresh tool marks on the bolts, or slip marks on the spline. I would say they didn't touch that part, to replace the broken shaft.

If that is true, then the previous condition may still exist.

Take a closer look when you get a chance, or get a closer photograph.


Yeah, sorry for the confusion, but that was a picture from Andries. When I wrote "it looked sort of like Andries' picture here" I was trying to say that the picture I was about to post was one of his, not mine.

Sorry!

Tomorrow I'm able to borrow my mom's car to run a few errands ... since I didn't get to work on the shaft today, I don't want to drive my own truck around yet. This is going to sound very silly, but I have trouble reaching that part -- I had to sit on the bumper bars to see the slipjoint and I'm not yet sure how I'll reach it.

I dreamt last night that I was doing this, and that I moved it too far and that it fell out as I was driving around. :rotflmao:

expat
06-27-2007, 08:53 PM
From Roger...

Just an update that the first steering shaft spacers were sent out for testing today. If
they fit and are the proper size to lengthen the intermediate steering shaft, they will be
available on-line.

As I said before, Roger is a good man.

Brian - your suggestion of a shim is what I assume Roger must be working on.

r0cky
06-27-2007, 09:20 PM
Hopefully it'll do the trick.

And it looks like I may get to mess around with the slipjoint tomorrow, unless another storm rolls in.

AlexJet
06-28-2007, 10:20 AM
From Roger...

Just an update that the first steering shaft spacers were sent out for testing today. If
they fit and are the proper size to lengthen the intermediate steering shaft, they will be
available on-line.

As I said before, Roger is a good man.

Brian - your suggestion of a shim is what I assume Roger must be working on.

This is very good point to start. So steering shaft spacers are in testing. I hope they will be available ASAP.
I didn't know that Roger also working on shimming. This might be the right option for us as well.
Mark, keep us updated if you are in direct contact with Roger.
BTW, what size are the steering shaft spacers and for what size lift they are?

Photog
06-28-2007, 11:41 AM
I checked out Roger's steering spacers. The existing design is used to fill the gap, left in the steering, when the body is lifted. From all I have seen in the steering shaft design of the 4th Gen, it looks like there may be enough room in the splined joints, to make up for most body lifts. It will be even better, IF there is a slip joint in the shaft, between the two u-joints.

The idea I was proposing earlier, had to do with shimming the coulmn mount, to change the angle of the upper portion of the steering shaft, bringing the lower end down some. Since there are actually 2 u-joints in the main steering shaft system, my previous idea would be of little value.

r0cky
06-28-2007, 12:38 PM
It's still pouring here.

How much damage is being done with the steering shaft being in stock position on my truck right now? I haven't driven it since getting it home, and am just waiting for the sun to peak through the clouds so I can loosen the slip joint. ugh.

Photog
06-28-2007, 01:06 PM
I will ask the guys on the FJ Forum, that are doing an SAS, what they know about this slip yoke in the steering shaft.

Photog
06-28-2007, 02:10 PM
I got an answer back from Demello, on the steering shaft. This may just be a corrugated metal tube.

Quote from Demello:
"That part does not slip out or in. It is a collapse piece for front end collisions. The older Tacoma's had a body lift kit that was either a 2in extension or a 3in extension. I don't know if it would for your application but that is what you need."

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p53/bsp3122/LowerSteeringshaft2.jpg

Photog
06-28-2007, 02:31 PM
So, it looks like we will need to extend the steering shaft, by approximately 1/2 the amount of the lift.

The upper spline joint seems to offer the most extension length; but we may need to loosen all 4 clamping bolts, and get a little extension from the 3 short splines, and the rest from the upper-most spline.

This may solve all the stress issues, for 1.5" lift & lower. A 1.5" lift, would require approximately .75" of steering shaft extension.

From the photos and diagrams I have seen, it looks like there should be enough spline length to do this. What say ye?

Tracey,
How much body lift did you install? When you loosened the steering shaft, and allowed it to extend, during the install, how far did it slide out?

r0cky
06-28-2007, 02:37 PM
I have 1.25" of body lift, and I can't remember how much it extended because we did it several years ago .... when I get to extend the new one once it stops raining, I'll try to figure out how far it slides out.

Photog
06-28-2007, 02:37 PM
It's still pouring here.

How much damage is being done with the steering shaft being in stock position on my truck right now? I haven't driven it since getting it home, and am just waiting for the sun to peak through the clouds so I can loosen the slip joint. ugh.

I don't see how the Toyota Dealership could have reassembled the steering parts, if they were under any serious load (tension or bending). They would have loosened up the necessary parts, to allow it to slip together.
You might even be able to see the marks on the under-hood parts, where they had t move the splined sections, or loosened the bolts.

Tucson T4R
06-28-2007, 02:50 PM
Since I just have a 1/2" body lift, I should be sure my steering spline joint should have allowed aprox 1/4" of extention for me. I'll double check and see if I can tell how much the shaft changing in relation to the spline clamp joint.

I was starting to get paranoid. :shocked: If only 1/4" on mine then it shouldn't generate much stress. You could easily get that much shift with normal body movement off roading.

Photog
06-28-2007, 02:58 PM
I was starting to get paranoid. :shocked: If only 1/4" on mine then it shouldn't generate much stress. You could easily get that much shift with normal body movement off roading.

It seems like normal flexing could cause 1/2" of body-to-frame movement (maybe), equalling about 1/4" of shaft tension/compression. You do want the shaft to be in a relaxed state, before this temporary load was placed on it, during off-road flexing.

Tucson T4R
06-28-2007, 03:06 PM
Yep, I'm going to loosen and re-tighten the joint this weekend.

Photog
06-28-2007, 03:34 PM
After loosening the two bolts, you may have to pry these two spots open a little, to make sure the clamp has released the splines, and that it is actually in a relaxed state. (and re-tighten when done).

Edit: If you only loosen one bolt, the other bolt may retain enough grip on both splines, not to release the tension. Loosen both bolts, and make sure the lower spline does not change position. If it does, move the clamp back down to the original position on the lower splined shaft. (the lower one looks to be a shorter spline than the upper one.)

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p53/bsp3122/SteerShaftwebsize2.jpg

r0cky
06-28-2007, 03:44 PM
Any negative effect if it is loosened too much? I mean, if it's pulled out more than necessary for the lift height?

How do you guys reach this? Is there some other way to get to it besides through the hood?

Photog
06-28-2007, 09:30 PM
If you take your front/driver side tire off, and look under the floppy fender flap, you should have good access to it from there.

Turn you steering wheel to the position that allows easy access to the bolts, and the grove in the clamp.

As for loosening too much: You may want to mark the shafts and clamp, so if it comes appart, you can line it all up, before tightening. Otherwise, your steering wheel may end up off-center. Also, the upper spline looks like it is the longest, and should be where your adjustment comes from. I wouldn't slide the shaft-end past the bolt that clamps it.

r0cky
06-28-2007, 09:32 PM
Thanks. Unfortunately, I can't - I have no place to work, just a parking spot here at the apartment, and if they catch me taking my truck apart (in any way), I'll be in trouble. Though not quite as much trouble as the guy with dirtbikes who spray painted the walkway behind his apartment....

I'm depending on tomorrow for some periods of no rain.

Photog
06-29-2007, 10:02 AM
I have a full day at home tomorrow so in the morning I intend to undo the slip yoke and remove it completely and see if there is any alignment issue between the Intemediate Shaft Sub Asssmebly No 2 and the Intermediate Shaft.

Mark,
What did you find out? How much spline adjustment is available in the upper clamp/shaft?

r0cky
06-30-2007, 12:03 PM
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1126/673367247_28cc78490f.jpg

Okay, guys, I finally had the opportunity to get in there and look at this.

First of all, I definitely recommend getting to it via the wheel well / fender area behind the rubber splash guard that covers some of the engine bay. You don't even have to remove the tire or jack it up, just pull off the two top-most connectors on that rubber piece and you'll be looking straight at it without having to reach through a hot engine area.

I was sure to mark with tape and a sharpie both the sliding yoke / clamp and the splines on both pieces that it holds together.

As soon as I loosened the first bolt, the slip joint popped a bit and released some tension on the shaft -- I would say that it moved maybe 1/2" or so, after which point I couldn't get it to come out any farther.

Since I was concerned about how much of the splined area was left in the joint, I went ahead and removed both bolts, pried the clamp apart, slid it up, and pulled the lower end out ... then I slid the clamp down and off completely.

The lower end has very little spline available for adjustment, and it didn't seem like it needed any adjustment at that end. The upper shaft had a good portion available to adjust, and after reconnecting everything, I found that a lot of it remained available even after pulling / pushing the slip joint down as far as I could.

Are you guys pulling the actual shaft out of somewhere, or just pulling the slip joint down? Because I found that after it released the tension, I couldn't actually adjust it anymore than I already had. And believe me, I tried!

So anyway, I think this is good, especially seeing how much spline adjustment is available on the upper shaft were it necessary.

I have some pictures of how it looks now and I'll post them as soon as I resize.

After redoing this, I do remember doing this exact same thing with the install of the BL ... which makes me wonder why, if we did it originally, the shaft still snapped off.

Tucson T4R
06-30-2007, 12:17 PM
I am wondering if somthing else caused your steering shaft to break. In one of your posts around the time you were having all the trouble with installation of the UCAs you mentioned the steering felt tight, like it was binding. I can't imagine what would have caused that steering bind, but maybe there was more to your shaft breakage than just the body lift adjustment??

r0cky
06-30-2007, 12:20 PM
I'm sure that was part of it as well, although I still can't figure out what could have caused that binding that day. Lance suggested it was the body lift installation, because he saw this same thing happen on one of his friends' trucks due to the BL installation.

Who knows!

Tucson T4R
06-30-2007, 12:29 PM
True. At least now you know you have a new steering shaft and there is no stress on it anymore.:D Now your good to wheel!

Tucson T4R
06-30-2007, 04:01 PM
By the way, I loosened my steering shaft clamp today. Even though I had it totaly loose on both ends, I was only able to get the upper shaft to slip out about 3/16". That's where it stayed in it's relaxed state. Re-tightened and heading out tonight on a full moon night run. :guitar:

Photog
06-30-2007, 10:58 PM
Both of you loosened the clamp, and both had a shaft that was under tension. If the BL had settled, they would have been under compression, and loosening the clamp would have allowed the shaft to move into the clamp. Either way, it is a side-load on the shaft, and can cause a fatigue fracture.

You both followed the instructions, during the body lift, and yet there was pressure on the system, later on. Either the tension was not completely relieved at the time, or something has moved since the install.

Either way, I think it would be a good idea for everyone that has a body lift, to loosen the clamp, and allow the system to relax. Make sure it is only the upper shaft that is moving, as the lower one is too short to allow movement, and still be safe.

Tracy, I think you can now drive with confidence, and not have to worry about the steering shaft. You can now go back to worrying about the other idiots on the road.;)

As for what may have contributed to the break: When the shop tried to install you suspension parts, you said it was very hard to turn the steering wheel, until some of the suspension had been adjusted again. IF the wheel was hard to turn, you had to be adding a large torque (twisting) force to the steering shaft. This could have been the added force necessary to fracture a shaft that was already under a strong side load from the body lift. The straw that broke the camel's back.

Photog
06-30-2007, 11:07 PM
So; now do we try to figure out what is causing the system to become loaded under tension, after the BL install is complete?

Ideas:
The rack & pinion has moved?? On the Gen3 4Runners, the rack & pinion is held in with a set of bushings. If the bushings get worn, the rack could move; but it does not seem like it would cause much tension on the steering shaft. How is the rack held in on the Gen4 4Runners?

Body lift has settled in the rear, and not the front. This would tend to lever-up the front end, and pull on the front body mounts, and steering shaft. :eek: How can we check for this problem? Loosen the front mounts, and see if they want to separate?

Any other ideas?

r0cky
06-30-2007, 11:38 PM
Either way, I think it would be a good idea for everyone that has a body lift, to loosen the clamp, and allow the system to relax. Make sure it is only the upper shaft that is moving, as the lower one is too short to allow movement, and still be safe.

Tracy, I think you can now drive with confidence, and not have to worry about the steering shaft. You can now go back to worrying about the other idiots on the road.;)

I agree -- everyone with a body lift should loosen the clamp to make sure that after settling/etc., the system isn't under tension.

As for making sure which shaft moves, my experience today leads me to believe that the lower shaft isn't going to move at all by accident. I mean, you have to slide that yoke/clamp UP the UPPER shaft before you can even pull the bottom shaft out of it. There is also more than enough upper shaft available that it's not going to be an issue of finding enough shaft for adjustment - there is more than enough.

Reading through the manual, it makes clear the fact that to get the clamp off and the lower shaft out of it, you have to DELIBERATELY slide the yoke/clamp UP the UPPER shaft. Even taking the bolts out of the clamp and loosening it completely, the lower shaft is rigid enough and it won't simply slink out of the clamp or fall out or anything.

If you guys are going to loosen yours too, I really recommend removing the clamp/yoke completely like I did because then you'll have a way better idea of how much upper shaft is available for adjustment purposes and how rigid the lower shaft is.

As for driving ... I have to admit I'm still worried, but I'll get over it after seeing that it's not going to break again. :)


Also: I started a thread over at t4r.org about this to encourage people to do the same: http://toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28997 but I don't know if anyone will read it. We'll see.

bulldog
07-01-2007, 12:14 AM
So; now do we try to figure out what is causing the system to become loaded under tension, after the BL install is complete?

Ideas:
The rack & pinion has moved?? On the Gen3 4Runners, the rack & pinion is held in with a set of bushings. If the bushings get worn, the rack could move; but it does not seem like it would cause much tension on the steering shaft. How is the rack held in on the Gen4 4Runners?

Body lift has settled in the rear, and not the front. This would tend to lever-up the front end, and pull on the front body mounts, and steering shaft. :eek: How can we check for this problem? Loosen the front mounts, and see if they want to separate?

Any other ideas?


In all honesty while you do a bodylift there is a lot of things going on. Tightening the steering shaft is last on the list, and it is highly possible that not all the tension is relived, yet we never check it properly at the end of an interesting mod. SOunds sloppy now while typing, but very easy to happen with "novice" body lifters.

I will need to double check mine, as I doubt we did as good a job as we should. Thus I think it is easy to draw a conclusion that it is just one of those things you have to double check down the line. Whether the bodylift actually settle that much or whether the person just got tired or distracted at the end of the body lift.

I know that I did not slide the clamp up and down to make absolutely sure all tension was relived. I just loosened it and tightened it at the end, thus it is highly likely that there might have been some tension left. Especially since you actually lift the body higher than the lift to get everything in, and then let the body down again.

Photog
07-01-2007, 01:43 AM
Andries,
During the body lift, it seems like the clamp should be loosened, before the body is unbolted, and the lift goes in. Then install the lift, and check to make sure the clamp/shaft have moved (relaxed), and tighten it down.

Do you still have the instructions? Maybe they could be improved, for future installers.

bulldog
07-01-2007, 01:46 AM
Andries,
During the body lift, it seems like the clamp should be loosened, before the body is unbolted, and the lift goes in. Then install the lift, and check to make sure the clamp/shaft have moved (relaxed), and tighten it down.


Yep that is pretty much it, I think the most important part is the verify that the link is not under tension before tightening the clamp.


Do you still have the instructions? Maybe they could be improved, for future installers.
DOn't have th einstructions anymore from ROger, but the write up is in the tech section. Might just want to update that :D

r0cky
07-01-2007, 03:12 PM
He added this:

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/Docs/BodyLift_HowTo.shtml#4thGenSteering

expat
07-03-2007, 08:21 PM
Ok, I've been screwing around with this and I'm not too impressed.

With the 1.5" BL I believe there is NOT enough length in the upper shaft.

Some pictures below will eventually get to this point. Prsently I only have between 8-10/32" of ther upper shaft splines inside the sliding yoke. I don't feel this is really enough. I would feel more comfortable with at least 3/4".

Anyhow, to some overdue pictures and comments...

Getting a screwdriver in there to prise it open. You'll notice I did not at this stage have the bolts completely removed, just loosened off substantially.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke002.jpg

Evetually I removed the bolts completely to free the yoke enough for it to slide upwards
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke007.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke006.jpg

If you look closely you'll see why the yoke would not slip up more than maybe a 1/2" at best - there is a recess for the lower bolt to fit across the shaft. Without removing the bolt completely the yoke won't move upwards.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke016.jpg

So now the yoke is off, let's look at this sucker in some detail.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke011.jpg

expat
07-03-2007, 08:23 PM
Some observations...

A wide groove in the yoke which I thought might be for a key (as in key way) but there is no key in the shaft splines

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke015.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke014.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke013.jpg

r0cky
07-03-2007, 08:25 PM
With the 1.5" BL I believe there is NOT enough length in the upper shaft.

Some pictures below will eventually get to this point. Prsently I only have between 8-10/32" of ther upper shaft splines inside the sliding yoke. I don't feel this is really enough. I would feel more comfortable with at least 3/4".

Hm ... I don't understand ... I have way more of the upper shaft in the sliding yoke. I wonder what the difference is? I wouldn't think my 1.25" BL compared to your 1.5" BL would make that much difference ...

expat
07-03-2007, 08:27 PM
Notice the cuts in the shaft?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke017.jpg

I caused this when I first tried replacing the bolts. I did the top bolt first with what i thought was an acceptable amount of shaft splines inserted into the yoke - approx 1/2".

When I put in the lower bolt I was having some trouble threading it in and could not work out what was happening. Fearing I might have cross threaded the bolt, I unscrewed it and saw that it was actually the bolt cutting into the shaft!

expat
07-03-2007, 08:31 PM
So then I had to undo the top bolt and slide it up again to inspect the damage to the shaft which was pretty negligible really.

Problem was, what to do next. I wanted the 1/2" of the upper shaft in the yoke but I could not pull down the yoke far enough to thread the lower bolt in because the recess was too far down the lower shaft.

I thought about grinding off the end where it was not recessed (thereby making it recessed!) but I was running out of time and patience so I lowered the yoke enough to get the lower bolt in, then tighten the upper bolt with only 8-10/32" of the upper shaft inside the yoke.

Simply put, there is not enough shaft (IMO) with the 1.5" BL

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Slidingyoke001.jpg

In this picture I was trying to capture an image of how little of the upper shaft is in the yoke but I just could not get a decent picture although you can see the yoke in relation to the lwoer shaft and see how that had moved up approx 1/4" from its stock position - WHICH IS THE MAXIMUM.

r0cky
07-03-2007, 08:34 PM
I guess I'm not understanding, Mark, why I seem to have much more upper shaft available than you and only .25" less BL ... ??

expat
07-03-2007, 08:41 PM
Then to cap it all off, I had everything buttoned back up and was heading off down the street to an appointment when my truck starts beeping at me and I noticed the steering wheel was about 90 degrees of center and the brakes start pulsing. Damn!

Back to garage to align the steering wheel correctly! At this point I was washed and showered and smelt pretty good, with clean clothes too, and here I was sweating it out in the heat doing the realignment of the shaft(s).

A few minutes later I'm off to the appointment with dirtier hands than I wished and beads of sweat running down my face Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Its all ok now and there is definitely no binding or tension (at least in the shafts) but I am not happy with the small amount of shaft in the yoke.

Mark out.

expat
07-03-2007, 08:44 PM
I guess I'm not understanding, Mark, why I seem to have much more upper shaft available than you and only .25" less BL ... ??

Don't have an answer for ya. Just hope you got all the tension out. I thought I had several days ago when I was fooling around with it but when I did this again just the other day, sure enought the upper shaft pulled out again when I unscrewed the top bolt on the yoke.

I'd really like to pull the whoile thing apart and sort this out but I need the truck on a daily basis so its hard to find enough time (especially in this sweltering heat) to tear it all apart.

expat
07-03-2007, 08:45 PM
I guess I'm not understanding, Mark, why I seem to have much more upper shaft available than you and only .25" less BL ... ??


How much of the upper shaft do you have in the yoke?

r0cky
07-03-2007, 08:46 PM
How much of the upper shaft do you have in the yoke?

Seemed like an inch if not a little more. I'll take it apart again in the next few days and double check.

expat
07-03-2007, 08:48 PM
Seemed like an inch if not a little more. I'll take it apart again in the next few days and double check.

If you have an inch or more I would think that it has not moved very far at all. I wish we knew the measurement of a stock shaft (how far it goes into the yoke) but I can't think its more than maybe 1.5" tops.

r0cky
07-03-2007, 08:50 PM
Don't have an answer for ya. Just hope you got all the tension out. I thought I had several days ago when I was fooling around with it but when I did this again just the other day, sure enought the upper shaft pulled out again when I unscrewed the top bolt on the yoke.

I'd really like to pull the whoile thing apart and sort this out but I need the truck on a daily basis so its hard to find enough time (especially in this sweltering heat) to tear it all apart.

It's not much cooler here in Texas, and it's my daily driver as well. I'll still try to take it apart again and check my estimation.

There was definitely no tension left on it. Hm. If it stops raining, I'll check it out.

I wonder if there's much of a different between how much space is between the two shafts on yours and on mine. Hm. Maybe someone else will take theirs apart as well.

r0cky
07-03-2007, 08:53 PM
If you have an inch or more I would think that it has not moved very far at all. I wish we knew the measurement of a stock shaft (how far it goes into the yoke) but I can't think its more than maybe 1.5" tops.

Just the yoke / clamp itself is supposed to move, right? Or am I supposed to be trying to shove the upper shaft in toward the steering wheel area?

I've had the 1.25" BL for several years now - maybe it just settled a lot. Who knows, but I mean, I definitely tried to push that yoke down as far as it would go on the upper shaft. We'll see, I guess.

Now I don't want to drive it until I can look again if yours was so short.

expat
07-03-2007, 08:54 PM
It's also possible (although I feel unlikely) that my upper shaft has gone up into the steering column somewhat. It certainly moves around a lot when free of the yoke - due mainly to the flexible coupling.

expat
07-03-2007, 08:56 PM
Just the yoke / clamp itself is supposed to move, right? Or am I supposed to be trying to shove the upper shaft in toward the steering wheel area?

Yes only the yoke should slide.

No, don't move the shaft up toward the steering wheel.

r0cky
07-03-2007, 09:00 PM
Yes only the yoke should slide.

No, don't move the shaft up toward the steering wheel.

Yeah, I wouldn't have thought so but it's perplexing that there's such a difference between yours and mine. Hm. I still don't feel like the adjustment I made has much to do with why the shaft broke -- but here's to hoping Roger finds something out from Lance soon about the piece they're testing.

expat
07-03-2007, 09:01 PM
Not withstanding that, to slide my yoke upwards, I had to use an open ended wrench on the bottom of the yoke and prise the yoke upwards levering against the lower shaft somewhat. I could not at any time slide the yoke freely upwards with just my hands. During this operation, the upper shaft would move upwards maybe a 1/4" under the pressure of the yoke moving upwards.

The upper shaft would always freely move back out when not applying pressure and certainly when the yoke was slide back down.

Did not you upper shaft move inwards (towards the steering column) when you applied pressure to slide the yoke upwards?

r0cky
07-03-2007, 09:04 PM
Not withstanding that, to slide my yoke upwards, I had to use an open ended wrench on the bottom of the yoke and prise the yoke upwards levering against the lower shaft somewhat. I could not at any time slide the yoke freely upwards with just my hands. During this operation, the upper shaft would move upwards maybe a 1/4" under the pressure of the yoke moving upwards.

The upper shaft would always freely move back out when not applying pressure and certainly when the yoke was slide back down.

Did not you upper shaft move inwards (towards the steering column) when you applied pressure to slide the yoke upwards?

No, mine didn't move inwards at all ... and I had no trouble sliding the yoke whatsoever with my bare hands. The only "prying" I had to do was when I wanted to be sure the yoke was down as far as possible on the upper shaft. But after removing the bolts, the yoke moved freely up the shaft and down again -- and it was always easy putting it back on the upper shaft after having removed the yoke completely.

expat
07-03-2007, 09:05 PM
I still don't feel like the adjustment I made has much to do with why the shaft broke -- but here's to hoping Roger finds something out from Lance soon about the piece they're testing.

I'm no engineer for sure, but I agree with you. I think we may have reduced some tension in the line but I do not think we have found the cause of the problem for the shafts breaking.

Here's a thought - did the other truck have huge wheels like you use to? I wonder if when turning the steering, the wheels hit the chassis and placed a lot of pressure on the shaft which initiated a weakness in the shaft. You may not recall it happening, not actually feel the contact, as the power steering removes a lot of the feedback from the steering. It might not have to happen at speed either, It might have been while wheeling over a substantial obstacle (think boulder!).

expat
07-03-2007, 09:10 PM
No, mine didn't move inwards at all

OK, that's surprises me!


and I had no trouble sliding the yoke whatsoever with my bare hands.

And that even more! Even once I cleaned mine up with a wire brush and soaked it in penetrating fluid for a few minutes, it was still not easy to slide the yoke back on the shafts because the splines are fairly fine and need to slide into each other. As I slide the yoke back on the upper shaft the shaft would move easily inwards a 1/4 or so. Like you said...Hmmmm

r0cky
07-03-2007, 09:15 PM
Here's a thought - did the other truck have huge wheels like you use to? I wonder if when turning the steering, the wheels hit the chassis and placed a lot of pressure on the shaft which initiated a weakness in the shaft. You may not recall it happening, not actually feel the contact, as the power steering removes a lot of the feedback from the steering. It might not have to happen at speed either, It might have been while wheeling over a substantial obstacle (think boulder!).

No, the 35s never hit my chassis -- we made sure it didn't rub anywhere other than on turning the wheel all the way one direction or another, and I only ran those tires for a few weeks, I believe, before switching back to my 275s. I don't think that was a problem because I never took them offroad and nothing rubbed but once or twice (I was in school at the time and walked to campus daily, thus not using the truck much during that period).

So unless the 275s did it (and I don't think they did because these measure about 32.4 or 32.6"), I really can't imagine what did. I guess we just have to wait until Roger / Lance are able to tell us about the secret part they're testing. Lance did mention that it won't involve the sliding yoke since we've already removed tension from that area.

At this point, I'm just very curious to remove the yoke again because mine did NOT at all resist movement up the upper shaft like yours did, and mine had more length left in the yoke.

After I removed the yoke and tried to put it back on, I did have to make sure that the splines lined up perfectly or else it wouldn't easily slide ... but that was easy to do and really I had no problems whatsoever moving the yoke up and down on the shaft. Granted, that entire upper shaft is a new piece on my truck so it was very clean / smooth.

And I say again: hmmmmmm...

expat
07-03-2007, 09:47 PM
Are you at liberty to say who the other truck owner was who broke their steering shaft?

Is it someone from another forum? How similar/dissimilar was their setup to yours? Year, model, wheel and tire size, useage etc if you know?

Did their problem get posted on any other forum?

r0cky
07-03-2007, 09:50 PM
Are you at liberty to say who the other truck owner was who broke their steering shaft?

Is it someone from another forum? How similar/dissimilar was their setup to yours? Year, model, wheel and tire size, useage etc if you know?

Did their problem get posted on any other forum?

No idea. Lance made a point not to tell me who the person was, and I didn't want to insist. All I know is that it's a "friend" of his, the person has a body lift on his 4th gen., and that the steering shaft broke in exactly the same place.

That's all I know.

I searched other forums but never saw any posts about a broken steering shaft on a 4th gen.

bulldog
07-03-2007, 10:12 PM
Hmmm interesting. I will have my truck back very soon now. I think I will give Roger a shout and drive up to his pad on a Saturday so he can have a looksy.

expat
07-03-2007, 10:33 PM
Lance just told me they are still testing the spacer idea. Seems like there are only two trucks to Rogers knowledge that have had this happen. Unfortunately all the tests they have conducted have been pretty inconclusive as to the cause of the failure - which is little comfort unfortunately for those of us with BL's and use our trucks as DD.

I'm seriously considering having to remove the BL but the sliders won't fit AGAIN. Also, removing the BL won't confirm the integrity of the shafts.

I guess the only way to know that is to pull them out and have the x-rayed.

bulldog
07-03-2007, 10:46 PM
There are a lot of variables in play, so I wouldn't live in fear of the shaft snapping. Currently the only explanation that seems to fit the bill is residual stress on the shaft after a BL that causes the failure of the shaft. There might be a better explanation, but none seems clear at this time.

Point is there are a number of folks running with BL on the 4Runners adn only 2 failures. Some of those folks have given the 4RUnner a good beating since the BL with seemingly no ill effect till date. Those 4Runners have covered a lot more ground than r0cky's as well.

I wish Michael was more active on the forums. He was the first guy to get a BL from RB, in fact Roger built the 4th Gen BL on his 4Runner. Wonder if his is still fine??

I guess we shall see what time resolves on this one.

One thing is for sure, I'm going to check my steerign and give Roger a shout as well.

r0cky
07-03-2007, 11:21 PM
Point is there are a number of folks running with BL on the 4Runners adn only 2 failures. Some of those folks have given the 4RUnner a good beating since the BL with seemingly no ill effect till date. Those 4Runners have covered a lot more ground than r0cky's as well.

Andries, statements like that make me feel defensive about my truck and the situation.

My truck might only have 11,600 miles on it, but I've covered "a lot of ground" off road with it. Just because I'm not involved in a club or don't have that many miles doesn't mean I haven't.

There's no reason to discount what happened with my truck as a fluke just because it's only one of two that this has happened with. The point is, there is some kind of stress on the joint that is NOT relieved by simply moving the sliding yoke to release the tension.

As Brian pointed out, the directional marks on the shaft where it broke point to a different type of force entirely.

It might be several things together, but the bottom line is that it has happened to two so far in the exact same spot and it has made us think about issues that arise when you change the angle of the shafts, etc. Maybe I hit something weird off road, I don't know, but I still think it's worth pursuing because it will result either in a) a fix for future BL'ers, or b) increased knowledge of the steering components.

Either a. or b. is valuable.

r0cky
07-03-2007, 11:23 PM
Hmmm interesting. I will have my truck back very soon now. I think I will give Roger a shout and drive up to his pad on a Saturday so he can have a looksy.

I offered to send him the broken shaft so he could see the marks where it broke, but he said he doesn't need it anymore. If he changes his mind, let me know.

bulldog
07-03-2007, 11:48 PM
Statements like that make me feel defensive, Andries.

My truck might only have 11,600 miles on it, but I've covered "a lot of ground" off road with it. Just because I'm not involved in a club or don't have that many miles doesn't mean I haven't.

There's no reason to discount what happened with my truck as a fluke just because it's only one of two that this has happened with. The point is, there is some kind of stress on the joint that is NOT relieved by simply moving the sliding yoke to release the tension.

As Brian pointed out, the directional marks on the shaft where it broke point to a different type of force entirely.

I was one of the first to install a body lift as well and I have given it a beating regardless of my mileage -- just because it hasn't happened to many people yet doesn't mean what happened with mine was a fluke.

It might be several things together, but the bottom line is that it has happened to two so far in the exact same spot and it has made us think about issues that arise when you change the angle of the shafts, etc. Maybe I hit something weird off road, I don't know, but I still think it's worth pursuing because it will result either in a) a fix for future BL'ers, or b) increased knowledge of the steering components.

Either a. or b. is valuable.


I'm not discounting your experience with the shaft, nor the miles you have travelled. However there are 4Runner that have done a lot more miles than yours, and a lot more offroad miles as well, with a BL. Lance's comes to mind as an example, similar Michael's last I spoke with him. One dune jumping session at Pismo will put a lot more stress on the body mounts and flex between body and chassis than a lot of slow offroad trips, simply due to the impact of such driving. So no dis on the miles you travelled or offroad experiences, that was not the point at all, rather just stating information.

The fact of the matter is we don't know what exactly is causing the issue. We don't know if sliding the yoke is enough or not, maybe it relieves the stress maybe not. Maybe it was something else on yours that created additional stress and not the BL, maybe not. At this point in time it is only a theory that the BL was the cause of the failure.

And even if it was the BL, we are not sure why exactly it did it. You said yourself that Billy (or whatever his real name is/was) did most of the BL installation on your 4Runner, we all know what we think of his mechanical skills and workmanship, so you can't be sure if he in fact did or didn't allow enough play on the steering. We don't know if it might have been caused by the last clowns that installed your suspension adn UCA upside down. They might have forced the steerign simply because they installed somethign wrong. Thus way to many variables at this time to come to any conclusion.

We don't seem to have any info on the other failure, but simply that it had a BL.

We only have a working theory that has yet to proved correct or incorrect.

Thus my conclusion, that yes it is definitely something we need to look into and investigate, but not something to constantly stress and live in fear over. I'm definitely planning on checking mine out when I get my 4Runner back, and I will contact Roger and see if can swing by his place with my 4Runner so he can have a looksy as well.

r0cky
07-03-2007, 11:57 PM
And even if it was the BL, we are not sure why exactly it did it. You said yourself that Billy (or whatever his real name is/was) did most of the BL installation on your 4Runner, we all know what we think of his mechanical skills and workmanship, so you can't be sure if he in fact did or didn't allow enough play on the steering.

I agree with your conclusion on the matter. As for the installation, yeah, Anthony didn't have much integrity or honesty as it turned out, but when I said that he "did most of the installation" what I meant was that I let him tell me what we were going to do next and how to access the body mounts or whatever, but we did each part of it together. So in that way, I do know what was done on it, as most of the time he had one ratchet while I had the other.

So yes, I let him lead but he never touched it without my being right there on it as well -- so I do know that the steering adjustment was done the way it should have been on that.

However, I do have a feeling that whatever those last asses did when they installed the UCAs upside down may certainly have accelerated the deterioration process.

So I do agree with what you're saying, and I agree that we don't know anything conclusive yet. It's already been beneficial discussing it though because we've had the opportunity (a few of us so far) to go out and loosen the clamp to release any remaining stress -- which was for sure a good thing!

Keep us updated on what you learn!

expat
07-04-2007, 12:04 AM
I'm not discounting your experience with the shaft, nor the miles you have travelled. However there are 4Runner that have done a lot more miles than yours, and a lot more offroad miles as well, with a BL. Lance's comes to mind as an example, similar Michael's last I spoke with him. One dune jumping session at Pismo will put a lot more stress on the body mounts and flex between body and chassis than a lot of slow offroad trips, simply due to the impact of such driving. So no dis on the miles you travelled or offroad experiences, that was not the point at all, rather just stating information.

The fact of the matter is we don't know what exactly is causing the issue. We don't know if sliding the yoke is enough or not, maybe it relieves the stress maybe not. Maybe it was something else on yours that created additional stress and not the BL, maybe not. At this point in time it is only a theory that the BL was the cause of the failure.

And even if it was the BL, we are not sure why exactly it did it. You said yourself that Billy (or whatever his real name is/was) did most of the BL installation on your 4Runner, we all know what we think of his mechanical skills and workmanship, so you can't be sure if he in fact did or didn't allow enough play on the steering. We don't know if it might have been caused by the last clowns that installed your suspension adn UCA upside down. They might have forced the steerign simply because they installed somethign wrong. Thus way to many variables at this time to come to any conclusion.

We don't seem to have any info on the other failure, but simply that it had a BL.

We only have a working theory that has yet to proved correct or incorrect.

Thus my conclusion, that yes it is definitely something we need to look into and investigate, but not something to constantly stress and live in fear over. I'm definitely planning on checking mine out when I get my 4Runner back, and I will contact Roger and see if can swing by his place with my 4Runner so he can have a looksy as well.


I agree with all you said, except for the last paragraph. I am very concerned I am putting my life, my family's life, and those on the road around me, at real risk.

I am forced into using my truck as a DD and I am seriously considering how much more driving I can justify until I get this resolved. I honestly don't have the money to throw around at pulling my truck apart and having it analysed by specialist in metalurgy to determine whether I have a weak spot in my steering. I am however mindfully trying not to overact to this situation. I have wheeled the truck pretty hard with a BL with no damage to date (to my knowledge) and I have covered a lot of hwy miles too. But it definitely gives me the feeling I'm on a bomb waiting to explode and that is not very comforting, especially in a DD.

I might just go buy a new shaft and instal it. That will give me some piece of mind for the moment. It will also give anyone who wants, the chance to inspect the shaft to establish if it has a weakness not yet apparent visibly.

Anyone know a metalurgist in SoCal who could do something like this (maybe on the cheap)?

You got to pay to play right?!:guitar:

r0cky
07-04-2007, 12:18 AM
As I've said, I offered to send the broken shaft to Roger so he could look at it in person (he mentioned wanting to at first) ... if someone finds a shop that wants to see it, please let me know.

Mark, I understand what you're saying - having had it happen to me once already, I am now feeling overly concerned about driving it -- I feel better having the new shaft, but it's still in the back of my mind when I think of driving with or without passengers. I am SO lucky traffic wasn't worse when this happened because I went out of control at an angle across oncoming traffic.

Maybe nothing will happen with yours or anyone else's, and I hope that's the case, but I do understand what you're feeling. In case you decide to get a new shaft (though I'm not saying it is or isn't necessary), here is the part number:

45210-35250 -- Shaft Assy. Steer -- $380

Definitely agree that there's no reason to panic, but if getting a new one will help you feel more confident/secure, that's the info. They don't stock this part in the US so they may have to order it from Japan, but any dealership should be willing to order it and get it expedited.

expat
07-04-2007, 12:49 AM
Thanks for that info Tracy.

I just looked in the manual and its a bit of an effort to get it out.In particular having to drill out bolts does not look like fun.

bulldog
07-04-2007, 12:55 AM
Well if you can swap out the shaft and have it inspected it will be bonza :bigok:

Just be careful of the airbag :shocked:

expat
07-04-2007, 01:05 AM
After loosening the two bolts, you may have to pry these two spots open....

Edit: If you only loosen one bolt, the other bolt may retain enough grip on both splines, not to release the tension. Loosen both bolts, and make sure the lower spline does not change position.

So just to clarify, if you need to slide the yoke all the way up to remove the lower shaft from the yoke, or if you were thinking of getting the lower shaft to sit slightly lower in the yoke, loosening will not work.

The lower bolt sits in a recess of the shaft. Trying to move the yoke upwards will just pull on the lower shaft.

You need to remove the lower bolt completely and I would suggest the top one can just be loosened off for it to slide on the upper shaft.

expat
07-04-2007, 01:07 AM
...here is the part number:

45210-35250 -- Shaft Assy. Steer -- $380


Tracy - how much did they (dealer) charge you for the R&R of the shaft?

expat
07-04-2007, 01:09 AM
Just be careful of the airbag :shocked:

:eek: :iagree ;)

Photog
07-04-2007, 01:24 AM
I will jump in again.

First: I suspect there is some in/out movement in everyone's upper shaft assembly; otherwise, there would be no slack anywhere in the system, for body flex.

Second: There are yokes at the rack & pinion also. It is likely thay have the same groovs as the lower 1/2 of the upper yoke assembly. The groove across the shaft, looks like it allows a little movement. You could probably loosen the yokes, and maximize the little amount of movement available. This looks like it might provide as much as 1/4" total extra engagement for the upper yoke/spline connection.

Third: I don't think a straight tension load on the upper shaft assembly could cause such a failure. I'm sure it would need to be side-loaded (bending). How could this happen? There is a u-joint between the upper yoke and the break location. If, after the BL, any tension/compression is in the shaft, there will be a bending force in the upper shaft, under the dash. Looking at my rig, with no BL, it looks like the u-joint angle is at least 15-20 degrees. Meaning the angle of the shaft under the dash is 15-20 degrees different than the shaft in the engine bay.

Fourth: The grove in the shaft, at the break location, is a stress riser. If it is not smooth, after machining, the groove can cause this failure, with very small bending and torsional loads. It would be a huge amount of work to get that shaft out, to polish it; but that normally eliminates this type of problem.

Conclusion: Maximize the shaft engagement, by extending all the yoke connections, allowing the upper spline/yoke maximum engagement.
And, make sure any movement available in the upper shaft assembly, is in the middle of its stroke, before tightening the yoke. This should prevent stress, even during flexing.

r0cky
07-04-2007, 02:45 AM
Tracy - how much did they (dealer) charge you for the R&R of the shaft?

Remind me what R&R stands for? (Sorry!)

expat
07-04-2007, 09:01 AM
Remove and Replace.

r0cky
07-04-2007, 10:58 AM
Remove and Replace.

Well, they had to replace the shaft as well as the spiral cable ... so the labor was $425 and the parts were $595.

Lance mentioned initially that the other person this happened with ended up paying over $2,000 (IIRC).

AlexJet
07-05-2007, 09:45 AM
How do Japaneese guys manage to do 4"+ bodylifts and not snaping anything????

This one has 4":
http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/048/048_09s.jpg http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/048/048_15s.jpg

Or this one with 8" of lift (5 suspension + 3 body):
http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/008/008_22s.jpg

This one is 4" body + 2" suspension:
http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/025/025_10s.jpg http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/025/025_11s.jpg http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/025/025_12s.jpg

http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/025/025_14s.jpg http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/025/025_13s.jpg

Another 4" body lift:
http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/040/040_01s.jpg http://www.215soc.com/Pic/215SG_Pic/040/040_03s.jpg

expat
07-05-2007, 10:19 AM
Alex - why don't you ask them?

They use to post up on the T4R forum right? I assume your still a member there so you could search the threads and maybe shoot them a pm or email and ask them what they do.

It's also an assumption that they haven't broken anything because they might not have communicated this on any forum you've read. Who knows? Certainly your question is a good one!

Obviously they must have done something for the BL they are using because there is no way the steering shaft can compensate for the extra lift without putting in spacers like Roger Brown uses on the older gens..

So, yeah, how about seeing if you can get in contact with them for us.:cool1:

r0cky
07-05-2007, 12:06 PM
Obviously they must have done something for the BL they are using because there is no way the steering shaft can compensate for the extra lift without putting in spacers like Roger Brown uses on the older gens..

Yeah, despite the differences in the amount of upper shaft you and I seem to have, Mark, I am with you 100% that there definitely is NOT enough for that amount of lift. ;)

expat
07-05-2007, 02:15 PM
sorry! reposted.

expat
07-05-2007, 02:16 PM
Ok, I've hunted down and emailed the Japanese guys at http://www.215soc.com/ to see what they are doing to handle the shaft issue.

They sure have some pretty intersting mods!

r0cky
07-06-2007, 05:26 PM
I take it back -- Mark, I only have about 1/2" or so of the upper shaft left in the yoke ... I thought it was more than that, but when I went out and took it apart again this afternoon, I measured it (very roughly) and found there only to be about 1/2" in there.

Today was also the first day I've driven it much since getting it back and it's still scary to me. The steering feels tight, especially when I turn the wheel all the way one direction .... it's not TIGHT tight, but, well, honestly I can't quite tell if it's actually different or if it's just because I am extra sensitive to the steering right now.

In any case, only 1/2" of the upper shaft is in the yoke, so there will be even less for those of you with 1.5" BL (as opposed to my 1.25").

expat
07-06-2007, 06:25 PM
I take it back -- Mark, I only have about 1/2" or so of the upper shaft left in the yoke ... I thought it was more than that, but when I went out and took it apart again this afternoon, I measured it (very roughly) and found there only to be about 1/2" in there.

Today was also the first day I've driven it much since getting it back and it's still scary to me. The steering feels tight, especially when I turn the wheel all the way one direction .... it's not TIGHT tight, but, well, honestly I can't quite tell if it's actually different or if it's just because I am extra sensitive to the steering right now.

In any case, only 1/2" of the upper shaft is in the yoke, so there will be even less for those of you with 1.5" BL (as opposed to my 1.25").


Ok, makes sense.

My steering feels constant throughout the arc.

Still haven't heard back from the Japanese guys.

Roger said in an email to me yesterday that he was waiting to hear back from the testers of the spacer he is thinking might solve the problem. Apparently they (not Roger) were installing the spacer on Monday of this week (4days ago). Hopefully we'll hear something soon.

I'm checking my steering yoke every drive for any sign of looseness but it all seems fine.

Will update the thread as soon as I hear anything from Roger.

Must say I'm tempted to get the yoke tack welded onto the top shaft to ensure its doesn't pop out, but that would be being overly cautious at this stage and will be a problem later down the track - grinding to get the weld off!

Cheers
Mark

r0cky
07-06-2007, 10:30 PM
Mark, I don't know, I can't see that shaft moving enough during regular daily driving to cause the top shaft to pop out --- there might not be much of it in there, but it would need to move in toward the steering wheel a good bit and if that were to happen, it would most likely be due to the lower shaft moving and pushing it --- in which case, it, too, would be moving inwards at the same time and not likely separate the two shafts.

Do you know what I mean? If a force causes an inward movement of the shaft, that force would most likely originate from the lower shaft (as opposed to mid-assembly or at the yoke) which would necessarily cause the entire assembly / both shafts to move at the same time. I can't imagine what would pull them in two separate directions, which is what would have to happen at the yoke for the upper one to pop out.

Hopefully we'll hear back from Roger again soon, although when I spoke with Lance a few days ago, he said the testing would be going on for awhile yet...

expat
07-08-2007, 12:57 PM
The Japanese forum webmaster has been in contact. He's just waiting to get an aswer from the guys who did a 4" body lift:shocked:

r0cky
07-08-2007, 01:37 PM
The Japanese forum webmaster has been in contact. He's just waiting to get an aswer from the guys who did a 4" body lift:shocked:

That is insane!!! Thanks for contacting them, Mark!

AlexJet
07-08-2007, 04:22 PM
The Japanese forum webmaster has been in contact. He's just waiting to get an aswer from the guys who did a 4" body lift:shocked:

Mark, you're lucky. I contacted them too, but didn't heard from them so far.

expat
07-09-2007, 02:42 PM
Here's what I have got so far. Naturally I have asked further questions to be more specific.

Will update as I get the info.



"Hi Mark

I had search some comment from past BBS.

Make a modification steering shafts need welding.

Replace steering shafts, some member replace to LAND CRUISER (100) steering shafts.

Thank you for introduce us great forum. we will visit sometime.

And sorry for my poor English, I hope you understand.


#215soc Over Seas"


My best reply in Japanese - hope it comes out correctly and I didn't say your truck sucks! LOL
toyota120.com のフォーラムの私達はあなたの助けにすべて感謝する。私達は私達があなたのフォーラムのメンバーに援助及び 興味余りに将来である場合もあることを望む。 点印

AlexJet
07-09-2007, 02:53 PM
I have got the email from 215soc member. He used Land Cruiser 100 steering shaft with some modification to make it fit for 4" body lift.
May be this is the way to fix our problem...????

AlexJet
07-09-2007, 03:04 PM
Japaneese Body Lift Kit:

http://a4.vox.com/6a00d4142a5dec685e00d41430d0dc685e-pi

K6UK
07-09-2007, 03:09 PM
I'm a little late to this discussion.
But I thought I'd report that I've had no issues so far with my 1" lift.
My steering feels very even.

I didn't do the body lift myself (Demello did it) so I probably should check it for tension.

-Mike

AlexJet
07-09-2007, 03:11 PM
I didn't do the body lift myself (Demello did it) so I probably should check it for tension.
-Mike

Mike, I'd recommend to do it. Just to make sure that you're fine.

expat
07-09-2007, 03:20 PM
Alex,

Maybe to avoid the confusion, I'll leave you to do the liason with the Jp. guys because we are getting the same info.

I don't want them to get frustrated with us asking the same stuff and having to email both of us the same info.

Cool!

expat
07-09-2007, 03:25 PM
Japaneese Body Lift Kit:

http://a4.vox.com/6a00d4142a5dec685e00d41430d0dc685e-pi



I'd like to know what all the pieces are in the photo.

Obviously the BL spacers are blue, and the bolts that hold the body to the frame. The small plates are the radiator repositioning brackets.

Looks like they might have a different yoke that allows for longer extension - woohoo..wonder if that is off the lc100

The big plates I am guessing are reinforcement for the body where the spacers come into contact although the shape does not seem right.

This is all great info. I was interested to see on their website the broken rear diff.

If you want a great tool to read their webpages in english, use http://world.altavista.com/ and use the "translate a webpage" to read their comments in English. Naturally the translations go a bit wacky but you get the idea.

AlexJet
07-10-2007, 07:14 AM
Alex,

Maybe to avoid the confusion, I'll leave you to do the liason with the Jp. guys because we are getting the same info.

I don't want them to get frustrated with us asking the same stuff and having to email both of us the same info.

Cool!

Mark, I think we got emails from Japanese guys at the same time, because I didn't see your post when I started write mine, but right after I posted it, I did mentioned that you posted a few minutes before me.
I'll be in contact with them. I'd also appreciate and I think all members here as well, that if you'll get some additional information, post it up, so we'll be completely inform.

AlexJet
07-10-2007, 07:21 AM
What do you guys think about Land Cruiser 100 steering shaft?:confused: Japanese guys mentioned that they did switch to those to eliminate steering issues. Looks like it mostly because of the length, but may be also because of the construction of the shaft itself.
We have here some members who work for Toyota. May be they can give us some details, images, part numbers and prices. I hope Robert can help us with this. Land Cruiser 100 was redesigned and new model came (do not remember the new number). Does it mean that parts become cheaper?
I did also mention that only 5 of us been active in this thread in past few pages: me, Mark, Tracy, Andries and Brian. May be other members should take a part of the discussion, especially who have access to Toyota "details". Just a suggestion. ;)

expat
07-11-2007, 12:36 AM
Picture of a welded shaft from Japan

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/expatozzie/Body%20Lift/Japaneseweld.jpg


Note this is NOT what they are using on their 4Runners but the same idea.

Can't say I'm interested in that.

I am interested in a yoke that is longer.

They didn't have any more photos at this stage - I think the guy I have been liasing with has stock height runner and runs the website for the #215 and has been asking around for photos or any other info from the guys who have these HUGE BL.

He did say they have been going to a pro shop to get stuff made up (welded) so nothing production orientated.

I would like to see the lc shaft.

r0cky
07-11-2007, 12:39 AM
Is that weld just reinforcing it? If so, does it address the issue of angle change / strain? Thanks for contacting them, Mark.